forth.And have you, uh, have people at your different sites, they've set up trail cams, haven't they, and got some pictures?

Yeah.

Um, one in Wisconsin got...

There's this thing we call a sweet spot.

He own...

There's this thing called the Beast of Bray Road.

It's a, it's a legendary creature that's a wolfman, not a Bigfoot.

Yeah.

Why is that?

Because sometimes it seems to be frozen, can't turn at all, and other times it turns somewhat independently.

In fact, that's what we did our first investigation.

But let me remind you that we came there with the hope of producing maybe a 15-minute segment, maybe 20, certainly not a whole feature film, and write a book about it.

Um, and as a filmmaker, you know, m- what I have to do is sort of how am I gonna, how am I gonna get enough footage and enough other...

Uh, how am I gonna get enough footage to tell a story? And so that's a whole different approach.

And when I got there, I had to look, look at the thing, the whole site, and say, "Okay, well, let's, let's try something straight away, and then we'll come back and, uh, get the B-roll." But B-roll means that we would run around, shoot the interiors of the buildings, the exteriors, fly a drone, get a lot of establishing material, so we'd have that at ha- on hand.

What was that indication? What, what do you mean you got an indication it wasn't about ghosts? What kind of answer did you get to your questions?

Mm-hmm

... that w- as, as human beings seem to be capable of experiencing one way or another.

Mark and I do flow practices based on, uh, simple martial arts, and we get into a state where the doer is gone.

There's no self anymore.

Everything works out wonderful.

In a, in a number of cases when I was in that state, my body returns to my 25 version of my body, and I move freely in a way that, that's just not possible normally.

I mean, recently I was at a place where the, um, where we were walking, this place in Wisconsin where the Beast of Bray Road is, and I slipped into that state.

Mm-hmm

Anyway, yes, it's a lot of

people are because it's been on television so much.

Right.

Brendan Fugel, the owner of Skinwalker.

of Skinwalker Ranch was there and used Juergen as a guide about a couple weeks before us because he was trying to buy the place.

But of course the government wasn't interested in selling.

And so the property has parallels physically to Skinwalker Ranch.

Ron, let's go with you

[laughs]

Okay.

So there's very spectacular red rocks around Sedona, you know, beautiful pinnacles.

You might have seen the same formations in Colorado.

And underneath is quartz, a quartz foundation.

So maybe that acts like something to attract, you know, how to kind of feel maybe it's attracting.

So if we, we might, we might go to the theory, Jacques Vallée's theory, the control theory hypothesis.

Our brains relate them.