Like, how does, let's say Codex as a platform, fundamentally think about breaking down this task? Like, do you just leave it to the model? Do you request that of the user? Talk to us about that.

I think the way that we've built Codex and the models underneath it are generally to be very steerable.

So different people, different engineers, different users will have different workflows that they think make sense.

Some people really like to do planning and have Codex do a lot of Q&A in the beginning.

Some people want it to just make a lot of assumptions and some people want it to remember preferences.

And so generally Codex will take what you give it like whether you ask it to like ask a bunch of questions or ask it to just work until completion, it'll go and do that.

Under the hood, you know, there's, I'd say like the way that we think about it is like, generally, like we want Codex to like one, you know, figure out like what is the full extent of the task that it needs to do.

So talking about software teams, right? How is this changing, for example, the ratio of software engineers to managers, which is something we're also thinking about internally, to, for example, how do you think about the traditional role of a PM plus a designer plus a software engineer?

I've been a PM for over a decade too, and, and like a lot of the work, dude, is just like, you know, editing Google Docs, making plans, doing alignment meetings, like all this kind of stuff, right? But like how has Codex fundamentally transformed how you work as a PM?

I would say that there's two levers by which it's changing how we work as product managers.

One is the actual how we do the, the specifics of the job, but then secondarily is that now with the entire team, you know, engineers, product managers, designers all using Codex, it's just the role that everyone's playing is slightly different, and so it's not just doing the old stuff differently, but even just the way we operate is very different.

Uh, I think that, I mean, fundamentally, I would say a lot of...

If you look at what product managers were historically doing, what we've been up to, it's a lot of information synthesis and kind of building ideas around lots of different interactions with different customers.

And I think that at least at OpenAI, we are pretty light on the product side.

You know, at, on Codex, we only have a few PMs, um, working across a lot of different areas.

Mm-hmm.