How old are you? How many kilometers? I mean, this is a heck of a trip.

Well, I'm 64 now.

I started on my first Camino when I was 40.

And as I tell my friends who find this rather amusing, because when I was growing up, I was not the sports guy.

I was the chess club, the debating team.

I was the ultimate nerd.

So I tell my friends who are all going through hip and knee replacement surgery now that I saved my joints from my old age and now I can walk.

But have you been able to understand that moment and find your path through this? Because there's probably an element of why not me when you were slogging away corporately?

Well, how quick can we do that? You say there's already an agreement.

Well, I think there are lots of steps that, uh, that can be, uh, that can be taken to facilitate things.

Sometimes, um, it takes a crisis to really motivate people, and that's, and that's a big part of the issue.

Because there's still lots of people who think, "Well, look, the midterms are coming, and then, and then Trump is gone in two years, and do we just have to suck it up for a little while and, and then it'll all be snapping back?" And the reality is Joe Biden was probably the second most protectionist, uh, president after, uh, after Trump.

Uh, he was doing it through industrial policies versus, um, tariffs or non-tariff means.

Um, but, but there's no question that, you know, the relationship will have changed.

And to your point, diversifying to as many markets as possible is critical.

All right, but, uh, how do we sell energy to Europe?

Where do you go with this? How do you now extend this so that other people can find their own path

to walk.

Well, part of it is being on programs like yours.

I've now done, you know, three events in the last week and book clubs and social posting.

And yes, there's an avalanche of noise out there.

In fact, my favorite Psalm 4610 begins, be still and know that I am God.

And I've always believed that Nietzsche got it wrong.

And how does your wife and your son feel about this? Because the sacrifices you've made to find yourself, how do they reflect on this and say, this is also a life well spent?

How much keeping in touch with people you have met on the Camino do you do throughout the rest of the year?

It's, it's huge.

Uh, I mean, there's a very powerful concept of the Camino family, Camino brothers and sisters, and, um, uh, it's real.

So I've done 23.

I have 50, 55 people that I keep up with on a regular basis, that if they're in Canada, they stay with me.

If I'm visiting in Spain, as I will be in, in July, you know, three couples [laughs] have invited me to their homes in three different towns, and it's, it's wonderful.

And people say, "Well, you know, Rocco, how is it possible? You're, you're with people for, uh, a few days, maybe a few weeks.

Can you give me an example of a so-called worst moment in your life that you ultimately refused to allow to define you, and what you did next to ensure that it did not define you?

What one felt the most transformational, most important thing What one sits in the seat of your soul and why?

Well, each one, as you know from your experiences, Bradley, each one has its own special moment.

And for me, the first one has an incredibly special moment.

I was walking the Francaise for the very first time back in 2002.

I'd walked them to Finisterre, and I had a few days before I had to get back to Madrid.

And I just wanted to rest.

And I was told, look, just down the coast a little bit is this little town called Ludo that's on a river estuary.

Well,

Um, what about this passage really touched you as it, as it came, when the words came onto the page? What did it mean to you?

Well, as you say, um, while the stories may be difficult, um, the reality is all of us suffer some, um, pain and anguish in life earlier or later.

You know, the Buddhists say that life is suffering, and it's not to say you suffer all the time.

Um, like, life would be impossible if that were the case.

But, um, but we have those struggles, whether it's even simply illness and aging and ultimately death, um, not just of yourself, but of those you love around you.

Um, and so you struggle with those things, and that's part of our universal humanity, what we, what we share with one another.

And when we, um, expose our own pain, um, it gives permission to the other to share theirs as well.

Let's do another passage from the book.

It was that part of it for you? Or did that come into it at all?

Look, I was raised in the Catholic faith and I lost my way for many years and then looked at spirituality in different ways.

It definitely forms part of the framing for my walking.

But all of us, whether religious or not, we all at some point are trying to sort through what it is that we're doing and are we doing the thing that really rewards us, really makes us feel useful, really brings us happiness.

And our day-to-day lives are just so busy and so distracting that it's rare that we give ourselves the time and space to do that.

And so it's really quite remarkable that virtually every culture across the world has some form of pilgrimage as part of its tradition because this practice of taking yourself out of your home circumstances, getting out of your comfort zone, pushing yourself physically, facing the elements day after day after day is really a An incredible context within which to meditate and think.

And again, religious, non-religious, and...

dear what a moment

So here, I'm keen to get you to the, uh, 2010 municipal election in this city, but on our way there, a moment, uh, regarding the Heart and Stroke Foundation of Ontario, 'cause that's where you're hanging your hat, right, in, uh, prior to the election in 2010.

2010.That is, um, that is correct.

Uh, along with an interregnum just before the 2010 in Ottawa as the National Director of the Liberal Party.

But, um, but five years running, uh, the Heart and Stroke Foundation, and really as a tribute, um, to my mentor, uh, Don Kitchen, who had, uh, who had died while we were traveling together in Belgium.

Um, I thought this was a way of, of honoring his memory and, uh, and really, uh, it, it, it was an amazing experience and a full-circle moment for me.

Um, towards the end of my term at, uh, at Heart and Stroke, I get a call from a woman who says, "You know, you don't know who I am, sir, but, um, my father, uh, was going to an event at Copps Coliseum three days ago, and he collapsed on the stairs from cardiac arrest, and the paramedics told us that he would have died by the time they arrived but for the fact that there were CPR-trained individuals at, at Copps and, and, and a, uh, defibrillator on the wall, which, uh, kept him alive.

And, uh, we talked to the people at Copps, and they told us that the Heart and Stroke Foundation had just put that, uh, in and done the training.

Do you think Olivia Chow is doing a, a, a good job as mayor of Toronto?

Uh, how do you see this race between Olivia Chow, progressive O- Olivia Chow, and centrist, uh, Brad Bradford?

Well, look it, I know, uh, both, uh, very well, and, um, I'm an enormous fan of, uh, Brad's energy and, um, new perspective.

Uh, and I think that, um- We need new leadership for new challenges.

And so very encouraged by what I've seen thus far from Brad, and hopefully he's able to continue that work.

As you know, I ran from there back in 2010.

I know what an incredible sacrifice and piece of work it is, but it's also an incredible opportunity to go into every corner of the city, meet with people, see the incredible things that are happening.

And I'm certainly always grateful to anyone who puts their name on a sign and puts themselves forward for public service because it is not an easy task and it is absolutely necessary for all of us.

So what would you tell politicians at all levels of governing Canada, something that you think impart wisdom on our ruling class, Rocco? That's how I want to end this with you real quick.

Why don't you give us the elevator pitch? What's it all about? Tell us about Finding Grace.

Well, um, at the heart of it is, um, the issue that most of us deal with, um, throughout our lives, particularly as we age, and that is, as we age, we start to lose loved ones.

And we're left with, um, the question, uh, "Why me? Why not them?" Uh, and, "How do I celebrate that I continue to, uh, to live, and how do I find purpose and meaning?" And in Finding Grace, you have a, a business A-type personality, um, Tony Bird, who thinks he's got the world by the tail.

And, uh, he's, uh, with his executive team in the Cayman Islands, and the CEO announces that he's heading to New York, um, to give his resignation to the board, and that will kick off the, uh, CEO sweepstakes.

And of course, Tony Bird desperately wants to be CEO, and he and the rest of the team all pile into the same plane along with, uh, commercial passengers, and the plane goes down, and he is the sole survivor.

And of course, he gets what he's always wanted.

He becomes CEO of this global firm.

But what inspired you to write this, this book finally now? What was it? What was that moment that got you or that, that one inspiring moment that you said, "Okay, now's the time I'm gonna sit down and do this"?

Um, what do you realistically think is gonna happen? People tell me, I don't know anything about soccer, people tell me that the draw being the way it ended up, Canada has a good chance of getting out of their group, then maybe it gets tough after that.

Yeah, I, I, I think that's right.

Um, they should get out of the, the group, but, um, really the, the class of the tournament, uh, are the Spanish and the French sides.

Uh, they are just spectacular.

Uh, I can't wait, uh, to see, uh, both Mbappe on the French side and, uh, Lamine Yamal has just been a, a phenomenon to watch him play for Barcelona, and I think, uh, he's gonna be the, uh, the breakout star of this World Cup.

... uh, somewhere along the one of those walks perhaps, you thought of an idea for a fiction story, and you may have surprised the lot of us, you are now publishing a novel, Finding Grace: A Camino de Santiago Story.

Yes, that's very kind.

It's coming out, uh, on Monday globally on, uh, Amazon, and you'll also be able to order it through your, uh, local independent bookstore.