the highest level, I think people are stuck in this

notion that these meetings are supposed to be terrible and that it's supposed to be grueling and miserable and not drive value.

I really do think that's the case.

I mean, if you think about PowerPoint, most companies are building their presentation in PowerPoint.

PowerPoint was built in 1987.

You could build a PowerPoint tomorrow and it would not look very different than a PowerPoint you built 15 years ago.

There's a problem with that.

Like what, what nuggets can you give them that they can take action on before their next board meeting to make their next board meeting more fun, like you said, and, and engaging?

First of all, when did all that start, and then what did it look like on the other end? What did it grow to, and then how did you decide to move on?

Yeah, so we, um, we ended up having the 14 shops, but we were mostly an e-commerce company.

I f- I fell in love with the internet.

So, um, you could really...

What you could do quickly and efficiently online relative to the stores, particularly if you're someone like me who's obsessed with brand, it was just, it was so much more efficient and, and scalable.

Um, so, so we, we just kept growing.

Um, I, I can't tell you there was some grand plan where we said we wanna get to $100 million in sales and open 30 stores.

Does it liberate this a little bit so that you can, um, both make those experienced board members, uh, better at what they do, giving them a role that where they can really sink their teeth in and use their experience to good advantage, but also maybe then providing an entryway for some of the people perhaps less experienced but representing a broader demography that really represents the future of our customers and our donors?

Why don't you tell people who don't know what Moosejaw would just give sort of like what was the catchphrase for it?

Yeah, I mean, Moosejaw, we sold North Face and Patagonia and brands like that.

But I thought that backpackers and climbers took themselves very seriously and we wanted it to be fun.

So we had a very different take on it.

Uh, we got ourselves in a lot of trouble, but we were crazy and foolish and because we wanted it to be fun.

And when we first opened, uh, we, and this is, I'm not being hyperbolic.

Uh, when, when people would come to our store in Kegel Harbor, uh, We didn't say, can we help you? I mean, I was 20 years old.

I say Ed Norton, and people go, what? How did he become one of your – is he a – He isn't actually involved with you from what I could tell at the meeting, but plus he's a funder too? I don't know the relationship 100%.