Yeah.

I thought there was going to be a few more clears, but it actually seemed to be tough enough.

I think there was five clears in the end.

I think with him going first, he's actually quite a quick horse.

Right.

And my plan was really not to try and overcook it and go too fast because...

I was thinking with the other competitors, I didn't know a couple of them so well.

did you gel straight away with him anything you've had to work on with him did you find he was your type straight away or or not so much

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Then I came upon a study done by the World Health Organization who twice had done longer-term studies of schizophrenia patients in six developed countries, one was the U.S., and three developing countries.

One study was two years, one study was five years, and everybody diagnosed by Western standards.

And what they found was that outcomes were much, much better in the developing countries, and specifically India and Nigeria.

After the first such study, people were like, how could this be? We got this modern medicine.

They hypothesized, this is the World Health Organization researchers who are Western researchers.

They're from the Western world.

No, no, that's

That was kind of self-evident when you were working with the population.

Yeah, you know...

This seems so obvious, right? That if we can imagine a different life and we can imagine like some of the stories that are told by people that you met, you could see yourself going crazy, right? And not being able to cope.

I mean, whether it be abuse.

I mean, everybody talk about kids.

Kids need to be safe, right? So if they're sexually abused, you know, the world becomes quite a frightening place.

You know, one of the psychiatrists I met when I was writing Anatomy and Epidemic was named Tony Stanton.

Where is that now and are you happy with where it's at and what do you see the future of that and what is its contribution?

Yes.

So you were...

You just had me speak about experiences where I found merit in the stories of people who are usually discounted, prisoners, people living, you know, ex-prisoners, alcoholics, younger women who ended up in prostitution, that sort of thing, okay? And during these different experiences we've talked about, I appreciated their stories, life stories, okay? And to me, they had authenticity.

They counted, and they were worth listening to.

So I was doing a series for The Boston Globe on abuses of psychiatric patients in research settings, okay? And one...

It came up that one of the things is it was about people diagnosed with schizophrenia.

This was 1998.

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