Um, and on Israeli side, um, do they need a better narrative as well?

I think, yes, I think Israelis, it's a very interesting moment, right? You're kind of catching me in the middle of the Copernican revolution and asking me, you know, well, what's going to happen tomorrow.

It's it's it's October 7th was a dramatic change, right? We we've talked about some of the trends that were already in place on both sides.

This was obviously a huge inflection point.

Um, one of the things that has seems to have gone by the wayside for now on the israeli side is the idea that look even with bad guys who are sworn to our destruction based on their nationalism based on what allah told them or they think that he told them even with them like we can we can live they stay on you you stay on your side of the yard or in your yard i stay in my yard we'll be fine.

That was actually, for all of the talk about Benjamin Netanyahu being this warmonger, the big critique of him in Israel is that he is anything but.

He was essentially, I don't want to say this too strongly, but he was more or less propping up Hamas in Gaza.

So why should Christians be interested in this area of the world, or should we? And then what do you think are a fair spectrum of responses that Christians could have to what's going on in Israel and Palestine?

Visit the magazine at thebiblicalmind.org for articles and videos that explore the deep structures of scripture.

Well, thank you, Drew.

It's great to be on the, "The Biblical Mind," and appreciate the invitation to talk about this, this new book.

I, I should say, I have not yet read this book.

I, I did, however, hear the conversation that you did with the two authors.

And, uh, I think it's a good place to start.

What here is, is worth thinking about.

Right

Yes, on the way back.

Daniel O'Connell, the liberator, um, he was the man who achieved Catholic emancipation for Ireland.

'Cause way back there at the beginning of the 19th century, um, Catholics, who formed the vast majority of the people of Ireland, um, they weren't really allowed to own property or, um, they weren't allowed to vote for anybody except a Protestant landlord.

They weren't allowed stand for Parliament.

And so O'Connell changed all that.

First of all, he went in and stood for Parliament anyway, even though he was a Catholic.

And when he actually got in, I think they had to change the law simply to let him in because they were afraid of the, the trouble that would be caused if he didn't.

Yeah

Could you unpack that a bit?

If you want to understand, um, really I would say any Middle Eastern government, certainly in the Arab and, and Muslim world, you have to acknowledge that there's at least three levels of power.

There is the level of tribes and clans, the indigenous, you could say authentic, organic family structures that really go back, uh, you're talking about until ancient times, right? These family units, they obviously evolve over time, but here as in really every other part of the world until the modern age, things have been decided by these family units, right? The nuclear families surrounded by these concentric circles of cousins and second cousins and all of that.

That's the first level, right? So, you're dealing with a, almost an immovable structure that's there no matter what happens.

Above that, one could argue below that is the level of religion.

So, notwithstanding tribes and clans and, and all of that, there is the religious or, or religio-cultural solidarity of Muslims with Muslims, Jews with Jews, Christians with Christians, et cetera.

And that is not necessarily the same as the tribal structure.

For Christians who are seeking to embody a certain kind of faithful presence in this new reality, what are the opportunities moving forward?