Is there a way to bridge that gap?

Yeah, so I think this is one of the most serious challenges in science is that this kind of gap there is between the scientific community and the rest of society.

And of course, scientists are part of society, but it's growing almost by definition because science and technology proceeds.

It becomes more complicated.

who knows what's happening exactly in your smartphone or what is the process by which vaccines are developed or new technology in general.

So in some sense, technology and science is moving away.

It's becoming more complicated to explain.

right well you mentioned in your talk uh quite a lot about interdisciplinarity and transdisciplinarity um and and it is an idea i'm very interested in um how do you get that happening how do you make people collaborate with people that they have no other reason to share oxygen with

... y- that, that low percentage rate? What's worked?

Well, I think one thing we do really well in the Netherlands is, uh, to take vocational and technical training very seriously.

Um, you know, we have had also big campaign to value it as much as academic training, but there's a whole system behind it.

We have, uh, more than 250,000 licensed, what we call learning companies, so they, they together with the vocational and technical colleges, set the, uh, curricula.

And, uh, so there's a whole system in place that, uh, take young people and give them the working experience and build this connection between schools and companies that allows both, I think, the schools and the companies to be updated and, and adapt to that, that rapid change.

And, and, and a second important element is, is that we po- put a responsibility to bring young people who, like, drop out of school or are about to drop off out of school to local authorities.

So we have experienced that what you need is communities of schools, companies, uh, government, but m- mostly at the local level.

in reflecting a, a scheme that way?

Maar, uhm, w-waarom, w-wat had het voor implicaties eigenlijk?

Ja, het had heel veel implicaties, want het vertelde gewoon natuurlijk dat we een heel ander wereldbeeld moeten hebben.

Uhm, dat, uh, we na moeten denken welke vragen we wel en niet kunnen beantwoorden.

Uhm, dat dingen, uh, misschien vanuit verschillende perspectieven kunnen bekeken worden.

Die allemaal waar zijn, maar niet tegelijkertijd.

En dat is een heel andere manier om over de wetenschap na te denken.

Dus het, een soort winst zit erin dat je meerdere gezichtspunten niet met elkaar in tegenspraak zijn.

Uhm, wat je ook zegt is dat quantum net als misschien wel, uh, de algemene relativiteitstheorie, uh, ook wel, ja, een soort filosofisch vraagstuk opwerpt van: waar-waarom zijn we hier eigenlijk allemaal en waarom werkt het zoals het werkt? Uh, het is bijna religieus, hè, hoe, hoe je ernaar moet kijken.