Isn't that right, Rob?

Absolutely, yeah.

Yeah, that was it, Joe, and I think, Kelly, when I, I spoke to you last time, uh, uh, when researching the book, um, I was kind of keen to, to tap into the fact that I, I was very much coming from it after 10 years after my wife first started experiencing perimenopause.

Joe's coming to it from a, a, a different age and also a different situation.

I, yeah, I met Joe through...

I was at Men's Health magazine in the UK, um, back in the early 2000s.

Joe came in as, uh, yeah, doing the what we call work experience over here, and, um, we kind of kept in touch as we were both working in that, in that realm going forward.

My mom didn't complain," right? Like the, let's talk about the ostrich dude because I think a lot of women, they, it's, and, and the word, they don't have the word for it, but it's like stonewalling of me of like, "I'm telling you something's going on, and it is not being received." So how do we, how do we talk to the ostriches or have women who are maybe living with an ostrich?

It's the best way they're written in, in that when it comes out of your head just spontaneously.

Well, I sent it to Tatiana because she was my doctoral supervisor.

Um, and she's great, and I just love the way she writes and her work, and she sort of just said, "Yeah, great topic.

Let, let's talk about it, Rob." So then we, then we spent six months kind of honing the paper and, and, uh, making it in a different way.

But where we started was, um, what are the foundational elements of coaching without which it can't really be called coaching? Um, so we did a big literature search.

We talked to a lot of people.

We had a lot of conversations and, um, and went to the definitions, and we came up with, with, um, six areas which we believe sit at the, uh, the absolute foundation of coaching.

I wonder if we're kind of trying to do-- We're gonna have to try and work out where that level of trust or how deep that level of trust goes, particularly as it gets better and better, right?