And How do you do that? How do you deliver value before you get the sale?

I have a kind of a, it's a multi-step process, but to illustrate a little bit about what it is.

So when I'm reaching out to somebody, the first thing I do is a book of discovery call.

in that inside that discovery call I learn I learn a lot about them I do some research ahead of the call as well but I learn a lot I ask them a lot of questions about what their struggles are what their challenges are and I say what's holding them back and so one of the things I'm very good at is I call myself as a chronic interviewer so what I interview so what I do is I ask a lot of questions related to their problems, like they call them problems, just challenges.

And then I will carefully listen to them.

And from my own experience and from other people's experience, I will actually come along and say, give them some, perhaps some solutions and maybe three or four solutions that they can actually apply right away.

And I normally don't even charge for that.

There you