But how did they get on initially? And did that change radically? Well, through the course of the war, let's just finish 1945 for the moment.

First of all, Churchill is crucial to de Gaulle's survival in 1940.

Churchill is the main important backer of de Gaulle in the summer of 1940 for that very brief moment when his survival hinges on just one thing.

That one thing is probably Churchill's support.

I think they appreciate each other from a very early stage.

So they've met in one of these conferences in the defeat of France.

Very significantly, Churchill recalls that.

What

But how did they get on initially? And did that change radically? Well, through the course of the war, let's just finish 1945 for the moment.

First of all, Churchill is crucial to de Gaulle's survival in 1940.

Churchill is the main important backer of de Gaulle in the summer of 1940 for that very brief moment when his survival hinges on just one thing.

That one thing is probably Churchill's support.

I think they appreciate each other from a very early stage.

So they've met in one of these conferences in the defeat of France.

Very significantly, Churchill recalls that.

What

How do you think that both men shaped the direction of their two countries after the war? What did they imagine that post-Second World War Britain and post-Second World War France would and should be?

Well, in that sense, they're very different.

So I think Churchill does come back to power as Prime Minister from fifty-one to fifty-five.

Almost nobody, and especially, I think, conservatives, regard that as a successful premiership.

De Gaulle, having seemed as if he's completely finished in the mid-1950s, then comes back to power in 1958 and in fact becomes president, not just head of government, but head of state.

So de Gaulle then dominates France during the 1960s, and in some ways, de Gaulle's great achievement is to be a peacetime leader more than a wartime leader.

So in that sense, de Gaulle molds post-war France much more than Churchill molds post-war Britain.

Do you think that Churchill looks across to France and de Gaulle during these post-war years and, you know, during these years of high Gaullism, do you think he looks across with envy?