Uh, you don't succeed without that, correct?

That's correct.

Uh, that brought me back to, uh, later in my business career, uh, about 2010, I got, uh, the j- my dream occupation, I guess you'd call it.

I became an op- owner-operator of a, of a music school and a music store in Denver, Colorado, which I'm speaking to you from today.

Uh, we, uh, and, and so that lasted about 12 years, and I retired.

And then the Lord came onto me through Patrice at our church in Vero Beach, Florida, where we m- we, uh, uh, attend together.

And, uh, she said, "Well, why don't you use your psychology degree and go through some training, uh, at the National Christian Counselors Association, the Center for, uh, Christian Leadership?" And I did that, and I got my license, and now I'm a licensed clinical Christian pastoral counselor, along with Patrice.

... yeah