Because I think that that's a big part of this, is once we do get these wins on a federal and a state level, um, we've got to be willing to still do the work, 'cause the race is, is not over per se, but there's still gonna be work to do after, which is why, uh, Rich, your organization is so, has been so critically important these past few years, is it's, it's helping to bring people in and say, "Okay, now we still got w- You've made it back, but we got work to do still." [laughs] So talk a little bit about that if you could.

You know, one of the reasons we founded Leaving MAGA was to make amends for our past decisions and rhetoric and our deeds and our votes, and to try to repair some of the damage that was caused as a result of supporting Trump and the MAGA movement.

And, you know, if you look at Jay's story, like so many of the stories of the individuals who are with us in our community, turning points started to occur when we expanded our worldviews and we started to diversify our news and information sources.

And that, that was li- When I did that, that was life-changing and altering for me.

And it's important as we come into the midterms, after the election, I believe there are gonna be many people in MAGA who are gonna start to have doubts about this.

They're gonna, they're going to, to realize that increasingly I believe there are more people who are starting to understand that they've been lied to.

And I think, Richard, there are more people than we realize who are privately harboring doubts-

Mm-hmm

Which is why, uh, Rich, your organization is so, has been so critically important these past few years, is it's, it's helping to bring people in and say, "Okay, now we still got w- you've made it back, but we got work to do still." [laughs] So talk a little bit about that if you could.

You know, one of the reasons we founded Leaving MAGA was to make amends for our past decisions and rhetoric and our deeds and our votes, and to try to repair some of the damage that was caused as a result of supporting Trump and the MAGA movement.

And, you know, if you look at Jay's story, like so many of the stories of the individuals who are with us in our community, turning points started to occur when we expanded our worldviews and we started to diversify our news and information sources.

And that, that was li- when I did that, that was life-changing and altering for me.

And it's important as we come into the midterms, after the election, I believe there are gonna be many people in MAGA who are gonna start to have doubts about this.

They're gonna, they're going to, to realize that increasingly I believe there are more people who are starting to understand that they've been lied to.

And I think, Richard, there are more people than we realize who are privately harboring doubts-

Mm-hmm

So once he was president, you found yourself continuing in your work of putting out the message?

After the 2016 election, I got deeper and deeper into the MAGA community.

It provided me a place of gathering and belonging and camaraderie.

You know, as embarrassed as I am to admit this, I devoted time and resources to my MAGA activism that could have gone to my family and my business.

I professionally produced a podcast.

I produced dozens and dozens and dozens of episodes.

I freelanced for MAGA Media.

You

How's the book going? How are people receiving it? What's the feedback that you're getting from people who have gotten the book and have read it? What have been some of the things that you've been getting from folks?

You know, thank you, Richard, for having me as always.

It's always good to see and be with you.

I wrote the book to tell the story about leaving MAGA and what attracted me to the movement, what life was like inside of it, why I decided to leave.

And what I really hoped as much as anything else from writing it is that people would, the takeaway from it would be that people would feel more hopeful and optimistic.

that we would show that it's possible for people who are deep in the thrall of MAGA to actually make the change and leave.

And the response has been overwhelmingly positive.

Rich, your thoughts there? Sorry, go ahead.

But none of that was enough because one of those things was enough for me.

No, I looked the other way, admittedly, on all of it.

And being in MAGA was where I was seen and heard and respected and appreciated.

And all of that, Don, was really intoxicating.

And it was a community for me.

It was a community of such that I had never had before.

And it is a community that brings a sense of camaraderie, gathering and belonging to the current members of the MAGA community.

And so I think there are many people like me who are going to say, why the hell should I believe this man? when he has done, whether he realizes it or not, horrific things for which I could have been killed.

I'm wondering if I'm being too generous in that assessment.

Well, I think in the case of Michael Cohen that he didn't have anywhere to go except to rekindle his loyalty to the president.

And it goes to show that anyone who is an adamant, staunch opponent of the president, if they're willing to come back, essentially groveling back to the president, that the president will take he or she back in.

But once that happens, then the loyalty is only a one-way street.

And Michael Cohen, I don't think that he, you know, he thought that just being an anti-Trump pundit would be enough for him to build a career.

That's the way that I look at what he did between his podcast and appearing in other shows.

The fact that he thought that there would be some pathway for him being just an anti-Trump pundit, he realized that it's a saturated market and that you need to have a unique product and offering, and he didn't have that.

There is a- If possible.

Am I out in left field or do you guys see that somewhat similarly? Rich, you go for

it.

I think so.

When I was in MAGA, Richard, it was a fantasy of ours to kill off the GOP and transform it into the MAGA party.

And that has been achieved and accomplished.

You know, I know it's called the Republican Party, but it's just a name only.

One of our two major parties is the MAGA party.

I'm sure some people have probably said some pretty nasty things, but there's also been a lot of positive, right?

It's more than just politics, right?

First of all, Mark, thank you.

It's good to be with you, and let me preface as I like to.

Anytime I speak or I'm in an interview, I want to apologize for my past MAGA activism.

What I found in MAGA was a political community.

In 2015, I was very politically lonely.

I felt that the two parties were the same, and I was very seduced by...

what's so interesting to me about your situation is the realization the things that triggered it and then the apology which is something that you're seeing more of you know we mentioned you did as well you know some of these high profile examples of the apologies i can't believe it i feel so bad about you know having campaigned for this guy etc but not quite the follow-through that you have you are not just about hey the apology feel bad you know i'll never do it again you're really understanding that there is a serious toxicity to this and it's poisoning the political system it's poisoning the discourse and it's dangerous i mean it it really can tear the country apart and kind of like you know you can't put Humpty Dumpty back together again and a lot of that is with information so I think what distinguishes you just from the again from a kind of jetliner view is that you're still you're ready to get in in fact you feel obligated to get in and actually try to right the wrong that you feel you were doing for so long with MAGA

What was that rich like? And then how did you get to MAGA? Well,

You know, in 2015, I was someone who was very politically lonely.

I was an independent.

I felt that both parties were the same.

I thought that most elected officials cared only about their donors and the wealthy and the powerful.

And when Trump came on the scene, even though he came from the world of wealth and influence and he ran as a Republican, I was very enticed by his outsider status without any government, military, or political experience.

And I was seduced by the burn it all down ethos of his campaign because I thought that democracy had failed most Americans and that we needed a major disruption to our status quo.

And that's tough.

So what can you tell particularly our left-wing audience?

You know, I think that, as I mentioned, that one of the steps to leaving is to renounce the lies, falsehoods, and conspiracy theories.

But the other step, and I think this one is particularly pertinent for those who are left-leaning to hear, is to make the continued case that we as a people agree more than we disagree.

And I think if we were to get an anti-MAGA and a pro-MAGA person together and they had a lengthy enough conversation, they would discover that there's more concurrence than there is disagreement on issues.

Now, there might be some disagreement on how to reach certain outcomes, what the solutions might be, but it's a way to lower the defenses by making a continued case that we as a people have many of the same fears and concerns and hopes and dreams.

We all want economic opportunity.

We want a safe and secure country.

So just in closing though, Rich, given that Trump is determined to steal the next election, do the MAGA people believe in democracy or are they just totally in the thrall of Trump to the point where they believe his big lie that he won the 2020 election and that the Save America Act is necessary?

So he went on their podcast and some of the stuff that he had to say about, you know, how he got to MAGA world, if you will.

I call them a they.

And the they were mostly Democrats, liberals, progressives, anti-Trump Republicans who were trying to abridge my rights and trying to indoctrinate my children.

You know, a they who were trying to take my guns or trying to turn America into a communist or socialist country.

That there was a they trying to replace white people with brown people and foreigners.

That there was a they trying to persecute Christians, trying to secularize America.

These were beliefs that I sincerely held and I knew others who also held them.

But when you get caught up in identity like this guy did, it becomes something

So for our viewers who are just getting introduced to you, I'm wondering if you'll tell that story a little bit for us.

Sure, and let me just thank you again for having me and let me preface by apologizing as I always like to for my past MAGA activism.

In 2015, I was somebody who was very politically lonely.

I was an independent.

I believe that both parties had been the same.

I felt that democracy had failed most people in that most elected officials cared more so about their donors and the wealthy and the power and the powerful.

And even though Trump ran as a Republican and came from that world of wealth and influence.

Yeah.

Is that something that went through your head as well?

So I wrote a memoir in February.

It's entitled One Betrayal, Too Many, Why I Left MAGA.

And in the memoir, I write about a they.

Mm-hmm.

And they were mostly Democrats, and this was a group of people who were trying to abridge my rights, who were trying to replace white people with brown people and foreigners, trying to take our guns, trying to transform America into a communist or socialist nation, trying to persecute Christians, amongst some other things.

I genuinely believe this and I knew others who were around me who also believe this.

So tell me, what else are you doing to kind of help, not only help people who have left MAGA, but what are you going to do to try to express widely why it's in the best interest of themselves and their country to get rid of that ideology.

Okay

... that led me to eventually leave MAGA.

The first accelerant for leaving was actually not Donald Trump.

It was my governor, Ron DeSantis, who in the summer of 2021 platformed COVID anti-vaxxers at a press conference that he held, and this was at a time when the Delta surge was ravaging the country, kids were befalling ill with the virus, children were dying from the virus, and as someone with two small children who's not an anti-vax person, DeSantis' actions really shocked and confused me.

I didn't understand why he was doing that because he had been a proponent of the vaccine up until that point.

And after that happened, I did something that sounds very, very simple but was profoundly life altering and changing for me, which was I diversified my news and information sources.

And as I, and after I did that, I went back and reexamined January 6.

Is there something that you've found to be, like, an effective tool for somebody who's at that state to get them over the fence?

Is that something that went through your head as well?

So I wrote a memoir in February.

It's entitled One Betrayal, Too Many, Why I Left MAGA.

And in the memoir, I write about a they.

Mm-hmm.

And they were mostly Democrats, and this was a group of people who were trying to abridge my rights, who were trying to replace white people with brown people and foreigners, trying to take our guns, trying to transform America into a communist or socialist nation, trying to persecute Christians, amongst some other things.

I genuinely believe this and I knew others who were around me who also believe this.

So tell me, what else are you doing to kind of help, not only help people who have left MAGA, but what are you going to do to try to express widely why it's in the best interest of themselves and their country to get rid of that ideology.

Is that something that went through your head as well?

So I wrote a memoir in February.

It's entitled One Betrayal, Too Many, Why I Left MAGA.

And in the memoir, I write about a they.

Mm-hmm.

And they were mostly Democrats, and this was a group of people who were trying to abridge my rights, who were trying to replace white people with brown people and foreigners, trying to take our guns, trying to transform America into a communist or socialist nation, trying to persecute Christians, amongst some other things.

I genuinely believe this and I knew others who were around me who also believe this.

So tell me, what else are you doing to kind of help, not only help people who have left MAGA, but what are you going to do to try to express widely why it's in the best interest of themselves and their country to get rid of that ideology.

How are you guys looking at that when you think about the promises that he made in this most recent campaign election that he won? I mean, how does that hit you? I mean, he doesn't care about the people he said he cared about.

Well, I think, Richard, that the president is aware that...

he is, albeit slowly, losing part of his base.

And he knows that the cracks have formed amongst his most hardcore supporters.

And I always, whenever I'm doing a media interview or an appearance, I always like to apologize for my past MAGA activism.

And something that I did when I was in MAGA is I helped the president divide the country, and I was culpable and complicit in assisting the president in amplifying conspiracy theories.

And his interview with Ms. Welker was just one lie and one conspiracy theory after another, all of which have long been debunked.

Talk about that, Rich.

So what do you tell people like that who are scared to leave because they feel fear, retaliation or retribution?

You know, I, I understand exactly where they're coming from, and it, and it does, it does show a lot of intrepidity and courage on the part of someone who does decide to walk away from what had shaped their worldview and their identity and their being and their personhood.

You know, I, I had a second family when I was in MAGA, and as embarrassed as I am to admit this, that second family oftentimes took precedence over my own blood family, and I devoted lots of time and money to my MAGA activism, and that's time and money that could have gone to my, to my family and to my livelihood.

So I, I do think that the president tries to rule by fear.

I take no comfort in being correct that before the twenty twenty-four election, I did write extensively and publicly that had Trump w- won the election, I feared that he would use the presidency as a tool of retribution, uh, as, as a way to exact revenge upon those, against those who went against him.

But we, we encourage those who come forward with us to, to give witness to their testimony because while they are taking a risk, there's also something very liberating about reclaiming one's agency, one's individuality and one's empathy.

And you, you've talked, Ben, a lot, you know, on all the videos that I watch from MeidasTouch with you and your brothers, you do talk a lot about, about having empathy, and I would really encourage those out there who have friends and family still in the thrall of MAGA to reinitiate contact with them.

And talk about the betrayal for you.

Drain the swamp.

And I wasn't just a, a regular supporter of Trump.

I was a grassroots activist.

I worked on the campaign.

I wrote part of the call script for the campaign.

I showed people where to get registered to vote.

I recruited people to vote for Trump, including Bernie Sanders voters.

Mm-hmm.

How do you think that that plays for the fiscal conservative non MAGA Republicans?

Well, let me just preface by apologizing to viewers for my past MAGA activism and my support of Donald Trump.

When Trump ran, I fell for the lies that he would drain the swamp and would root out corruption.

And he was correct in pointing out the graft and the fraud and the abuse.

But what he has done is he has continued to enrich himself and his own family at the expense of the American people.

I realized that Trump was lying and that I had allowed myself to believe these lies, which eventually led to my leaving of MAGA.

And I think that there are more than ever who are in the MAGA community who right now are having doubts about their support for Donald Trump.

Rich, does everyone agree? Is the pain less than people thought?

Tell me about that all at once moment, as it were.

You know, as the memoir title expresses in One Betrayal Too Many, people who decide to leave MAGA, they reach a point where there's one betrayal and there's one lie too many.

And in my case...

Again, I'm to some extent ashamed to admit this.

It took a lot of reasons for me to finally leave.

It wasn't the mismanagement of the pandemic wasn't enough.

Initially, January six wasn't enough.

And I'm wondering whether or not that is one of, the panaceas for this crisis that those who are in MAGA are a part of.

What do you mean by that? What did you see?

What I came to realize after leaving MAGA is that the movement is-... buttressed by a number of lies and conspiracies and falsehoods.

And what MAGA does to its adherence is it traumatizes them into believing that Democrats, and liberals, and progressives, and anyone against Trump must be an existential threat to themselves, their families, their cut- their country, excuse me, and their livelihood.

So the trauma that exists within MAGA is, is it keeps people in perpetual states of desperation, and panic, and rage, and paranoia, the kinds of feelings that I went through as I was spending an entire year coming to the realization that I had believed lies and that I had created a public persona based on falsehoods that I did sincerely believe but turned out to be false once I had my own epiphany and realized that I had believed so much of what the president was saying was not true.

What do you believe MAGA's impact has been on our country? How has it changed our country?

Well, it was a fantasy of ours when I was in MAGA to kill off the GOP and make it into a MAGA party, and I think that that transformation has been achieved.

And unfortunately, MAGA, I believe, has traumatized every square inch of the country.

But I also think that there is some good news, Stephanie, to all of this.

When you were writing and doing the podcast and all that stuff, were you excising some personal demons of your own, or what was your sort of personal goal and mission, and how did you view your role in the movement?

I looked at the 2016 victory as a second kind of founding of the country, and I actually viewed Make America Great Again as something very progressive and very forward-facing.

I was 39 years old in 2016.

Make America Great Again was not nostalgic for me.

I wasn't thinking about the good old days back in the '60s and '70s.

I had become a parent for the first time in 2016, and I justified so much of my...

And I, and I became a parent for a second time in 2019, so I justified so much of what I wrote and said as doing it for my family, and many in MAGA would say exactly the same today with those who have children.

W- when did that happen? Why did that happen? How did you fall out of love with this movement?

Just take me inside your- your sort of theory of where we are now and where we're heading.

Well, thank you, Nicole.

It's a great honor to be with you and the esteemed panel.

And those, for those who are meeting me, I want to apologize for my work on the 2016 and 2020 Trump campaigns.

I don't think that there has ever been a time more so than right now in which more MAGA Americans are questioning their support for Donald Trump, and I think that there is a burgeoning cognitive dissonance pervasive across MAGA and begotten from that dissonance are confusion and doubts.

And so for any of those who are in MAGA who are going to see this and you're wondering if this is in fact the movement that you thought you were supporting, I want you to know that I am with you because I know what you're going through.

It's why we founded our organization, Leaving MAGA.

What did you love about MAGA when you were in it? What was it?