To what extent do you think a Burnham or other new premiership could really be that different?

Well, you cited there the, the, the fiscal parameters, and I do think that is going to be the biggest challenge, as you say, because, uh, and, and Giles will be able to speak much more eloquently and, and, um, knowledgeably about this than me.

But my crude understanding of it [chuckles] is that i- in the absence of the economic growth and the revenues that allow you to do the sorts of things that certainly Labour MPs got into government to do, which is more generously fund public services, take measures to ease the cost of living crisis, that there's, uh, accounts for all of the public anger that explains why the Labour government is seen to be failing so badly.

Without that revenue, you're back to the question of, of which levers will you pull to try and get money from the Treasury, or what might you do to stimulate growth? And we've already seen Andy Burnham say that he would stick with the manifesto locks on National Insurance, income tax, VAT, so, yeah, he's ruled that out.

He has this additional problem that he made that comment that is now hung around his neck by his critics, the one about the Britain, uh, being, having been too much in hock to the bond markets.

Uh, he knows very well that that was a, a very serious misstep, that the people in the City heard that, they flinched, uh, they didn't like it.

I, I've spoken to people in the City, I've spoken to bond traders who really freaked out about that a- and they want very clear reassurance that, uh, he isn't going to be fiscally incontinent, so he has to then almost overcompensate i- in that direction.

And Raph, I mean, no doubt many Labor MPs are breathing a sigh of relief at the idea that reform can be beaten, but do you think that's the right reaction or was this just a, a- an unusual situation?

Mm

... driven by a feeling about injustice of what's happening in Palestine turns into a kind of venomous hatred, which then acquires a lot of the attributes and characteristics of a blanket over all hatred of what used to be called global Jewry and Jewish influence in the world, and suddenly you're in the realms of an antisemitic conspiracy theory.

And it's not that easy to say where anyone is suddenly on that spectrum and when they suddenly cross the line.

But I can tell you that a lot of Jews feel very clearly that line gets routinely crossed, especially at those demonstrations.

And when they point it out, they're told that they're somehow weaponizing antisemitism or they're trying to shut down criticism of Israel.

So that, to me, is absolutely the exquisite heart of this problem that has to be analyzed calmly and carefully, but perhaps hasn't been understood with enough sympathy by the people who organize these marches.

And I wonder if you worry that something as horrific as this is in danger of being used for political gain.

Yes, I, I do worry about that, and I worry in particular that, I mean, I hope this isn't the case, but I suspect that what will happen now is we'll get into this all too familiar vicious circle where what happens is there is antisemitism, uh Often on the progressive left of politics, it's a particular blind spot, as I mentioned earlier, uh, on the radical left of politics.