That's

awesome.

That's a very powerful message, which is you took a timeout, which takes a lot of security to be able to go.

I think I'm done here.

That's tough for anybody.

The breakup is tough.

And then a lot of a lot of growth and a lot of maturation during that whole point for both of you.

Do you find that the majority of people in this situation are nice guys?

Um, Is, is there, is there anything, um, that you can say about like talking about anxious and avoidant attachment styles? Is there a lens for spotting red flags early on or something, um, that men like only understand in hindsight or women only, you know?

You know what the biggest and most obvious red flag is? Let me put it this way.

A guy will tell me stories of, my wife is this way, and she's very distant, and she really likes her independence, and she doesn't like it when I come to her and try to touch her and hold her, and I want to snuggle on the couch.

She's just like, ugh, I don't like any of that.

In fact, in hindsight, I look back on our relationship, a lot of guys say, and there was a honeymoon period, but even that honeymoon period was a little off.

It was a little cold.

In comparison to some stories I hear from guys, it was really not like that at all.

I

So what comes next?

The next would be the really difficult stuff, which is, all right, Mr.

Anxious, we need to work on some stuff that you have done again and again over the years.

years of your relationship that has shown that she can't trust you.

You're not a very honest individual.

You're not, there's some silly little examples I gave in the book, but that are very realistic.

I've had men say, were you in my home? What the heck? You're watching a bachelorette show on TV and the man has to select from all these women and a wife turns to you and goes, which of those four women that are left do you think is the prettiest? And the guy's like, and he's like, he starts sweating.

No.

So what comes next?

The next would be the really difficult stuff, which is, all right, Mr.

Anxious, we need to work on some stuff that you have done again and again over the years.

years of your relationship that has shown that she can't trust you.

You're not a very honest individual.

You're not, there's some silly little examples I gave in the book, but that are very realistic.

I've had men say, were you in my home? What the heck? You're watching a bachelorette show on TV and the man has to select from all these women and a wife turns to you and goes, which of those four women that are left do you think is the prettiest? And the guy's like, and he's like, he starts sweating.

No.

That, that, that's it? That's all you can say? [laughs]

Oh.

So you realize, yeah, I'm officially a fifty-year-old w- fifty-year-old man now.

So, um, i- I'm so- still getting used to it, still getting used to that transition.

And there's a part of you, you alluded to it, where we are very competitive with as men, keeping score.

Um, men seem to be very sensitive to the old hierarchical nature of human beings.

You get like a pack of males, not even men, boys, teens, older men together, uh, groups, and you'll watch, and they will kind of feel each other out, and they will determine which one is the pack, the pack leader, and which one is the, his lackey, and which one, and which one at the bottom of the pack.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Now, what a lot of guys come back with is, "Yeah, but as soon as we divorce, I'm gonna watch her.

She's gonna be back on the market.

She's gonna be a new human being again." It's like, yeah, that's what happens.

Both of you.

You, you...

Mother Nature takes over and it's like back on the market and you become more youthful, more sexy, more vibrant, more, uh, all that stuff goes with it.

Yeah.

Mm

... regressive, kind of teenagery, kind of rebellious behavior, and that involved kinda i- in a lot of ways, m- kids, you're with Dad now.

And I had the kids, like, upwards of, like, 80% of the time for, you know, several years there.

So the kids were really starving for a maternal figure, for sure, and there's only so much that Dad can do in that realm.

Um, so after, you know, uh, s- how many years? Three years after the divorce and so forth, when I introduced them to what would become wife number two, Natalie, um, y- you know, I kinda braced for, like, how's this gonna go? Is this gonna be weird? Is it gonna be like she's not our mom or...

But it was so sad that they were so starved for that maternal figure that they just accepted her, like, day one.

Natalie's the new mom figure.

Yeah

So when they come to you, where do you start these men? What's the first hill that they have to climb in the program that you offer?

A common phrase that I use with a lot of these guys when they chat with me one-on-one or we have live meetings as well as a group and talk, is a guy will share his story because he feels safe to do so.

He's in a group of guys for the express purpose of talking about this kind of stuff.

So finally he can talk about this kind of stuff, and he's not gonna get raked over the coals or treated like a weakling for doing so, so that's a great thing.

So he opens up and talks, and you talk about the childhood stuff.

That's everything.

And but a lot of guys are not necessarily averse to talking about it.

And then, of course, tell them where they, you can find, they can find you.

So what comes

next? Next would be the really difficult stuff, which is, all right, Mr.

Anxious, we need to work on some stuff that you have done again and again over the years.

years of your relationship that has shown that she can't trust you.

You're not a very honest individual.

You're not, there's some silly little examples I gave in the book, but that are very realistic.

I've had men say, were you in my home? What the heck? You're watching a bachelorette show on TV and the man has to select from all these women.

your wife?

Tell us about, was there anything in your early life, your upbringing, or even in just your early career that has kind of led you down this path and the work that you're doing today? Tell us about your story.

It's a good one.

And I think it's one that a lot of your male listeners will appreciate and can relate to in a big way.

I went through a pretty nasty period of my life about 14 years ago.

I was married, had three little kids, and I discovered that my then wife was having an extramarital affair.

Which just led to all kinds of chaos, led to the divorce, led to me having kids most of the time.

Their mom at the time, Mac's wife, was probably, I know it's not a clinical diagnosis, but it was somewhat of a midlife crisis type of thing.

But what helped you overcome some of those challenges that you faced and working towards having a healthy relationship with your current spouse?

um because this is an attachment based podcast um tell us about was there anything in your early life um your upbringing or even in just your early career that has kind of led you down this path and the work that you're doing today tell us about your story

It's a good one.

And I think it's one that a lot of your male listeners will appreciate and can relate to in a big way.

I went through a pretty nasty period of my life about 14 years ago.

I was married, had three little kids, and I discovered that my then wife was having an extramarital affair.

Which just led to all kinds of chaos, led to the divorce, led to me having kids most of the time.

Their mom at the time, ex-wife, was probably, I know it's not a clinical diagnosis, but it was somewhat of a midlife crisis type of thing.

But what helped you overcome some of those challenges that you faced and working towards having a healthy relationship with your current spouse?

I, I see the same thing, I think, where I kind of view it as, like, the new relationship energy and all the hormones-

hormones-Why is that such a universal thing? What is happening there?

... with, like, how you interact with all humans and just the world.

It's, uh, basically it boils down to, dude, why didn't you say no toYou're fine.