[coughs]

Um, in particular.

I think the question of is pa- is patriotism back, is nation state politics back, I think in some ways it, it never went.

It never disappeared, the patriotism.

I think what we did see for a long time were, were these models of sanctioned patriotism or permissible, um, patriotism, where you had, uh, what I'd consider to be, um, a progressive liberal political establishment, but just not in politics, but in other spheres of British life, especially the, the media, where certain forms of patriotism or rather cer- certain shapes of, um, patriotic expressions, they were seen as more palatable.

And I think that this, that's something to be said about the kind of culture which has developed and the fact that now what we are seeing is a kind of...

We, we are seeing a counter challenge to that, a cultural counter challenge in the shape of what I'd consider to be a, a, a quiet English revolution, I'd say.

Yeah.

But what's your feeling about Kemi's decision to let this guy stand?

Well, I think that firstly, we should have some degree of belief in the power of rehabilitation and that there are cases where people were previously affiliated with dangerous extremist ideologies and then turn their backs.

on those dangerous extremist ideologies and then have done work themselves in the de-radicalisation space.

They have that first-hand experience of detaching themselves and seeing the error their own ways.

I think that the issue is really that to what extent can we really promote a figure of that nature in public office? And I think another point to make here, if people are comfortable with a former neo-Nazi who has said that I have rehabilitated myself, I reject extremism in all its forms, then would we also be comfortable if it was a former Islamist extremist? who was also saying similar things.

So I think that if in this case, we're generally supportive of the idea of rehabilitation and even supportive of someone with that kind of background running for public office would be also comfortable with that if it was a former Islamist extremist.

But I suspect that there'll be some people who simply don't want, they don't want anyone who has a previous affiliation with any kind of extremism to be involved in politics.

And to enfranchise 16-year-olds, according to critics, will result in a great many more of these sort of independent MPs for Gaza in the House of Commons.

... my imminent cold, but I, I'm struggling through, Martin, so you carry on.

Well, [chuckles] well, on this policy, I have to say, I do actually quite like it.

And there is, as, as has already been said, there is some logic to this.

You know, if you are, you know, gonna vote Green, knowing full well what their policies are on immigration, which is total open borders to the whole world, let, let's face it.

If you do believe that, I think it's only fair that you take the, the burden, considering that when you look at a lot of parts of the country where a lot of, you know, asylum seekers and migrants are housed, it does tend to be the poorest parts of the country, you know, towns in the north.

You know-

That's not the way our politics works or shouldn't work, surely.

It shouldn't.

What did you make of that Easter message from the Prime Minister?

Minister?Well, I, I don't think that the Easter message was necessarily inspirational.

I think you share that feeling.

Yeah, and I don't think it was a, it was a bad message.

I think there was also a strong emphasis on the contribution made by Christians in society and Christian organizations.

So I think it was a, it was a very milquetoast message, if you could put it that way.

I don't think it hit any strong notes as such.

Do you think that this country is more divided than it was ten years ago, bearing in mind that this is the tenth anniversary of the Brexit referendum?