At what point in this career, Jenny, did you start to suspect that the traditional goal setting or business goal setting or personal goals that we do is causing more harm than good?

You know, what I observed for a long time in my career was that goals had a side effect.

But it took me a while to articulate that goals don't work well.

And more importantly, what do you do if goal setting is not the right way? That last question is the hardest to answer.

So I'll share with you sort of how my thinking evolved on this.

Really early in my career, I worked at a company called Avid.

And for some people who might have heard the name, we owned the video editing market.

How do we manage people against a hypothesis or assumptions in this model?

Right, right.

But at the same time, you have to be not so in love with your own idea that you're unwilling to learn and adapt.

So in the whole OLA format, right, of observe, hypothesize, learn, adapt, what makes me realize if someone is coachable or not is how flexible they are in terms of wanting to learn and adapt, the level of curiosity that they have.

You truly have to have openness and curiosity to be able to look at a puzzle, not just try to...

So if you look at the example of the puzzle that I was setting, right, when we talked about tech savvy brokers using it, you had to have genuine curiosity to say, "How are the other people behaving today? What do they do?" Not just approach it from how do they use Signal.

So you have to approach it with genuine curiosity.

You have to be able to say, "Why should those users behave exactly the way they are behaving today?" Like, why is it in their right...

Oh, I love that.

I think very few companies have figured out and very few CEOs have figured out how to strike that balance because it's really hard.

I so agree.

It really is hard.

And there are a couple of things that I want to unpack in that, right? What I've seen is when you have goals and targets, right? Here's what it leads to.

Either things are going well, and if things are going well, you're hitting your targets, and that in turn leads to complacency because you go like, oh, phew, you know, I can relax a bit.

I can just milk this for a bit.

And the example of that, I shared this recently in a talk, is Marvel.

Does your work tend to be kind of top-down, or are there instances where you kind of create the movement in a more bottom-up way?