What was that like?

Yeah, I mean, you know, it's kind of ironic, isn't it? That obviously happened at the courthouse and then she's getting arraigned in the very same courthouse that she was accused of filming the jurors in.

You know, the tables really turned.

I mean, as you say, when we came outside, all of a sudden, all the attention, all the cameras were on her.

So it was really kind of a 360 moment, wasn't it? But yeah, in the courtroom, it was the arraignment courtroom, which is the small one downstairs.

And, you know... was all of the media that basically were upstairs a lot of them kind of piled downstairs and in and then she came in she didn't say anything a not guilty verdict was entered on her behalf and yeah she wasn't really kind of giving anything away in there she her attorney spoke for her um saying that you know not guilty and you know pushing back against the state's request for a 50 000 bail so state was requesting 50 000 bail and also that she not be allowed to contact the jury or anyone connected to the case and that she stays away from the courthouse, apart from when she obviously has to come back to the courthouse for her own now criminal case.

But they also said, you know, her team said she's got no prior criminal convictions, criminal record.

Yeah.

What did you think of the question of them wanting to see the pills and the knife?

It's an interesting one.

I mean, it's an interesting one because I think the knife to me suggests they're looking into how serious that suicide attempt was.

And obviously that was a kind of a line that the prosecutors pushed initially, but then seemed to backpedal on a bit in their closing and say, you know, this was a serious suicide attempt.

But then that coupled with the medication, which obviously is a key part of whether she was overmedicated or not, you know, are they looking for how many pills are still in those containers, which is obviously what the prosecution kept pushing that, yes, she got all of these medications.

Yes, she got all those prescriptions, but she didn't take all of them.

So are they looking at that aspect in terms of the overmedication and how serious the suicide attempt is as a, was she overmedicated? in sound mind at the time of the killings? You know, is it part of basically the question that they're there to answer? Was she criminally responsible? Or are they just methodically going through all the evidence? And that was obviously their quite key pieces of evidence that were not put in the room with them at the start of deliberations.

Did you hear anything like that?

The jury clearly knew something was going on because then they sent them all home suddenly for the day.

Yeah, I mean, it was a really big moment.

This is week five of testimony, and this has been a very long, grueling trial for everyone involved.

So I think this, a mistrial, the option even for a mistrial to be on the table at this stage is not something I think anyone wants.

Even p- uh, Kevin Reddington, who obviously called for it, you know, when it was first brought up wi- under Sue Clancy's te- testimony, he was very adamant that he is not gonna ask for a mistrial.

He said, you know, "Why would I want to start this trial all over again?" And he felt that, you know, the matter was settled with the judge striking that testimony when Patrick Clancy's mother was asked about mortal sin that first time.

So I think it shows how seriously he's taken this, you know.

What did it sound like?

And Rachel, what did we learn from Wiffen?

So the big thing with his testimony was showing through the Apple Health data, giving a more specific timeline of what actually happened on the night of the killings.

So we know that Lindsay Clancy asked Patrick to go to CVS and to go to 3V Restaurant to pick up takeout.

The exact timeline of the killings is, you know, within this timeframe.

So there's, he left the home so of around 5:15 and returned just before 6:10.

We don't have a super specific timeframe for what happened within those moments that he wasn't there.

Lindsay Clancy's Apple Watch was found not by investigators during the search of the home, but it was instead found by Patrick several days later inside a bedside drawer.

She said she was nurturing and deeply loving towards her children, and this is, of course, despite knowing that Lindsay killed her three grandchildren.

Okay, so that's what the prosecution have outlined, but how did Lindsay Clancy's defense then open?

Yeah.

So as we mentioned, Lindsay Clancy's defense does not dispute that she killed the children.

There is no question about that.

Instead, the defense led by attorney Kevin Reddington, who is well known in Massachusetts.

He's known for actually representing the mobster James Whitey Bulger's girlfriend after she went on the run with him for many years.

So he's, um, a very well-known figure here.

There's extensive research supporting the use of sertraline in this instance, and the general consensus among psychiatrists is that it's a first-line, safe medication for individuals, including postpartum women.

Obviously, you know, neither of us are medical professionals, but I just thought that it's interesting because maybe there's a reality where he's a little bit of both.

Yeah, and I think the not knowing the full story means it's also difficult to kind of determine that because everything we know about the actual night of the murders, the morning of the murders, still only comes from Chris Watt's mouth.

And his story has changed many times.

So it's very hard to know the level of premeditation, the level of impulsivity.

But it does sound like from what experts say, including what Dr. Picard was obviously saying, that there had to be at least some level of premeditation.

And we know that Chris has admitted that he was drugging Shanann with alcohol.

Oxycontin in the lead up to the murders.

how

Let's listen now to Rachel's interview with Vanessa about the family claiming he was pushed to kill.

You obviously had a lot of dealings with Jamie.

What did she say to you about Shan'ann? What was her response to, you know, the loss of her sister-in-law, her two nieces, and the fact that, you know, her own brother was behind that? What were those conversations like?

I truly believe that the Watts were devastated by the girls' deaths, and I did get that from them.

How did they reconcile what Chris had done to, you know, not, not just to Shan'ann, but to his little girls?

But Rachel, it is difficult, isn't it, to find that balance? Because what you might advocate for giving nature more room means fewer animals for Gareth to raise.

I, I don't see that at all, actually.

We need to keep those people on the land.

We need to keep those families in those communities, keeping those communities going, 'cause they are the, the backbone of rural Wales.

What we need is to make sure that there's a good livelihood for those families, and particularly for the young generation.

You know, they are looking forward to a very uncertain future.

We need to give clarity to that.

Are you aware not only of y- your responsibilities to nature, but also to farming in the community?

What's your assessment of what it means for the environment and, you know, the people that you represent?

You know, they always say it's early doors, but it's also now we're starting to see where the emphasis is.

Uh, we always talk about the 100 days of government.

We've obviously got the Royal Welsh today.

There's been some announcements around the sustainable farming scheme.

I'm sure we'll talk about that.

And then we've got summer recess.

So they're more stubborn.

Can you just tell us a bit about what the vibe was like? You spent a few days there.

Yeah, so the hearing itself was actually held in Lexington County rather than Colton County.

Colton County was obviously where the first trial took place, and that was not far from where the Murdochs lived and where the crimes took place.

But this hearing was in Lexington County, so that was around a 90-minute drive away from there, so not specifically in the area where it all happened.

But I did have the chance to visit Colton County and speak to some of the locals around the area.

And one thing I'll say that I really noticed is how quiet the area was.

I mean, a lot of things were closed.

And Rachel, in this pretrial hearing, what legal arguments were discussed?

I mean, there's other places that have, are y'all looking at these other places?

Yeah, that's something we are, you know, very interested in.

And, you know, apparently a lot of these case, a lot of these jurisdictions have already contacted and, you know, We've asked the district attorney and he said, if they've contacted us, we've kind of shared things.

So even before the DNA was entered into CODIS, I think there has been some of that sharing.

So whether or not he has been eliminated from some things, we're not sure.

You know, we're not kind of privy to that at the moment, but that is certainly something that we're kind of looking to explore further.

Yeah, because as you say, he had, you know, he had land in Chester County and that's where his brother lived.

What do we know about the burner phones? Why would, did he have 40 burner phones? Like, is this something you were learning

What other link... do you think is probative, proves that they're one and the same?

So a lot of the links between the two, it's a lot of circumstantial evidence that, you know, through Alex's investigation, he has unearthed.

Obviously, the big one being the solving of the Z13 cipher.

Now, many people have tried to solve that before.

Alex has found a solution and the solution actually points to the name of one of the prime suspects in the Black Dahlia murder.

What makes that quite compelling is that that evidence was presented to the chief US code maker and code breaker for the NSA, Ed Giorgio, and he has verified it.

So, you know, you have one of the top cipher experts saying that they believe that that solution is correct.

To you, Rachel Sharp, what do you find to be the most compelling theory?