Yeah.

So yeah, I think I, I resonate very much with that, because the tangible aspect of material is so, so important.

And for me, especially as a color material and finish designer, these are the things that, like...

The world is going more digital, more and more digital nowadays, but then, um, at the same time, we are kind of getting away from the real material.

But then, uh, sometimes people always argue that, "Okay, fine, we don't need to have the real material if we have a lookalike that could have, uh, that could solve the purpose." But then for me, I feel it's a driving force in my design practice.

And, you know, just not to define the visual language, it's also how you shape the product.

Because any material that you have, you decide to make a product with, ultimately it'll have a feel, right? It'll have a function, and it'll always have an emotional aspect to it.

Right.