So why is this process of becoming so important to social work and social workers?

I'm glad that you, I tried to make that clearer in this edition because I think I mean, it's always been there and that was the idea behind the title, behind the kind of process of being a social worker as a kind of an action.

So being a social worker is doing not necessarily something that's inside of you.

So I feel like I am a sociologist and so I notice in my profession in social work that the tip towards action psychoanalytic psychological models of identity and so I wanted this to tip in the favor of the kind of more sociological analysis so I think what I want for students and people reading this book is to see that concepts that we have in psychology really dominate our day-to-day life and our world and they're in popular culture and so you know the idea of personality the idea that somebody's A narcissist, for example, we see these terms all the time in popular culture, in social media, but it also resonates into our profession because we're not divorced from the society within which we are placed.

And so in presenting a model of identity that says we become by doing and by being in relation to others.

So it's through that social interaction, that way of doing social work that reinforces this identity of ours in social work.

And so it's this, you know, it draws from George Herbert Mead's concept of identity, which is that it rejects that idea that that we are born kind of preloaded with this idea of who we are, but actually it's through sociality, it's through social interaction that identity is produced.

So how does purposefulness enable that dance and the cards to fall in a different direction?

a

plan as a kind of compass rather than as a step-by-step.

So the compass is what am I, or the sun or whatever metaphor you want to use, but you're heading towards something.

You want to move towards something and And then thinking back, stepping back from that broader pathway and thinking, okay, what's that middle point look like and what does it look like now? So coming up with those five, ten, one-year plans and then making it into bite-size achievable kind of goals, but also recognising that you know, I worked in a place once that had a workload model that was over three years.

So it kind of equalized over three years.

And I actually really liked that.

I think it's a great model because it shows that in one year you can have very few publications because you're working on something, you know, you're working on some research or you're having a heavy administrative load that year, but you can still keep to that overall goal by kind of accelerating and and putting the brakes on some things but but knowing that it's there to pick up so I think it is having that broader perspective that enables you to know that you are moving in the right direction as long as you're moving in the right direction you're fine it doesn't matter how fast you're moving because I think that what we can get caught up in is this you know we have to get things immediately and we feel the pressure you know get a grant write that publication.

But you're arguing for something a lot more granular as well there.

But my first question is, noting that I am in glamour central that is Palmerston North, you've worked around the world, and what is the gift of working in nation states beyond where we accidentally happen to have been born or conceived?

Mm.

Mm.

Mm.

Oh, I, I love that idea of being a s- being a strength.

Like for myself, if I think about it from my perspective, I love being in that liminal space or the fringe dwelling space of being on the outside of a culture and learning and, and it being an opportunity for me to think about, huh, how have I arrived at this, you know, position in terms of how I view research? How, how have I, um, thought about education and what are the kind of nuance differences that might exist in this particular context? So I really l- love that.

I th- I agree with you.

That's interesting.

Yeah

... why do we think or want people who do the same thing every year on year? I mean, I think in social work we're lucky because we value, um, going out into practice, into the world outside of university, and then coming back in, and then going back out.

And, and so I think narrating that is, is helpful, to be able to say, "Well, I, I'm focusing on, you know, this part," and thinking about what you're bringing back to your teaching practice or your research practice.

Um, but yeah, I think, I think it starts with a kind of self checking in.

Do I use demeaning language, dehumanizing language about people? Do I think about people's ability and capacity to do their work, and that that might fluctuate over the life course? And then, um, just being kind of kind to each other about those life events or different flavors of engagement that you'll have with work versus caring versus other kind of, you know, responsibilities.

But if we see it all in the same family of a kind of civic engagement or being a citizen, then I think that that takes the pressure off and, and, and moves us, shifts us from being critical of other people to being more, um, thinking about work as just another version of kind of social responsibility or, or engagement.

So how do we make these meaningful interactions in place where part-time structures and strategies are centered and cared for, and they're not the aberrance, they're simply part of what we do in universities?

Mm.

And the other thing, because you and I have often been in disciplines that are not terribly well respected by research policy or research infrastructure environments, and I'm being classy there which is rare for me but the gift of paying yourself first is that you're not then reliant on the research policy that's in fashion at a particular time or the research infrastructure and in many disciplines most of which I work in we're going to be waiting a very very long time for any support of any kind but there is also a freedom that comes from committing to that one hour so do you think colleagues are wasting time waiting for the approval and acknowledgement of others?

Probably, but probably not because it's their own doing.

It's because that's what they've been told.

And I think that that comes down to the culture of some environments, some are more freeing than others, but this idea that you've got to do all of these things and we're not robots.

We all have our own skill set and differences in what we like to do.

And as an academic, if you're a teaching and research academic, you've got to do teaching, you've got to be great at teaching, you've got to do research, you've got to be great at research, leadership, engagement with the community, engagement in committees and things.

It's a lot and it's a lot.

term yeah

So how do you engage with a community through the writing process and indeed through dissemination? How do we stop that isolation?

Hmm.

Look, I think creative methods are our friends here with this sort of thing because they enable a different way of producing something that communicates the findings of research to people who wouldn't maybe come in contact with the research ordinarily.

So I think creative methods like, you know, an exhibition, like, you know, a guide for lay people outside, you know, for civilians if we're going to continue...

Yeah, so those kind of translational pieces, I think, and the non-traditional research outputs, the nitros that you and I talk about, I think that they are such a lovely way, and they're the fun things, I think, from my perspective, a lovely way to kind of use your imagination to think, how could I communicate this? Or what do I like doing? Do I like kind of social media? Could I use that to disseminate research findings? And then to really engage with community and create a conversation, you know, about the research.

So I think it's that, you know, thinking creatively, thinking in a way that's not kind of hemmed into this idea that research dissemination has to occur in a particular way, but looking at how can I innovate in this space or do something different You know, it may be crossing genres.

You might be...

So what advice would you recommend to manage the stress, the time away from our families, caused by this intense period of teaching preparation?