How would you define populism?

Well, I'd point out that it's a democratic phenomena whereby rank and file people start to take an interest in their political affairs and express themselves through a political party, through a movement or something like that.

And not that we want to spend a lot of time on political philosophy, but de Tocqueville, who was the French colonizer, a commentator on American politics a long, long time ago, the 1820s, I forget, in his book on democracy in America, said that the real defining line between the political parties in the United States are the ones that were going to come, would not be this left-right center line.

spectrum that we tend to use.

It was whether or not they were animated by the aristocratic passion or the democratic passion, whether they were in favor of government being in the hands of the few or in the hands of the many.

And that the populist tradition, the populist passion felt that government should be in the hands of the many, that there should be bottom-up political energy that expresses itself and is respected.

And that's the distinguishing characteristic of those parties.

Were there lessons about populism, about kind of these different issues we're talking about that you learned from your father and from his experience? And how would you contrast the social credit movement, the kind of populism, the kind of things they were pursuing in terms of Alberta's relationship with the rest of the country to the moment we were at in the 80s and 90s and the moment we're in today?

What's your comment, Preston? Why are we having these big discussions about these big policy areas?

Well, let me ask that, but make one point first.

A lot of people are confused with the word sovereignty.

They think if you're supporting sovereignty, you're supporting secession, that sovereignty means secession.

And that's not what's meant by the premier.

You can see how people will get that because in Quebec, it was used sovereignty association meant secession and associations.

But that is not what it means legally.

Good

It's a whole list of things that could easily be changed, couldn't it?

Well, not easily, David, and I think you were getting to that earlier.

Some of these things, like the federal government intrusion in areas of provincial jurisdiction, particularly natural resources, that could be changed by an act of parliament or even a decision by the federal government.

But these constitutional inequities, the fact that this Senate of Canada, which was supposed to provide regional representation to deal with some of these things we're talking about, is completely ineffective.

So there's a question on... on that ballot of should we give up on trying to reform the Senate and just abolish it.

Partly is to send a signal that it's not working.

The fact that the federal government has or let's put it the other way around, that the province has no say in the appointment of judges, provincial judges, and we've got a whole bunch of Trudeau-tainted judges whose judgments are at variance with where the public's head is at, should there be a change in... should the provinces at least have some consultative role in the... appointing of judges.

in the West have regarding our current federation?

It's a whole list of things that could easily be changed, couldn't it?

Well, not easily, David, and I think you were getting to that earlier.

Some of these things, like the federal government intrusion in areas of provincial jurisdiction, particularly natural resources, that could be changed by an act of parliament or even a decision by the federal government.

But these constitutional inequities, the fact that this Senate of Canada, which was supposed to provide regional representation to deal with some of these things we're talking about, is completely ineffective.

So there's a question on... on that ballot of should we give up on trying to reform the Senate and just abolish it.

Partly is to send a signal that it's not working.

The fact that the federal government has or let's put it the other way around, that the province has no say in the appointment of judges, provincial judges, and we've got a whole bunch of Trudeau-tainted judges whose judgments are at variance with where the public's head is at, should there be a change in... should the provinces at least have some consultative role in the... appointing of judges.

in the West have regarding our current federation?

Mm-hmm

... th- there's a, I, I know you maybe don't want to get into philosophical discussion, but, uh, I, I'm an admirer of, of Thomas Jefferson, and, and towards the end of his life, this, uh, this would be in the early 1820s, 'cause he, remember, he lived a long time after the, uh, helping to draft the c- the American Constitution.

Somebody asked him, "If you were rewriting the, uh, American Constitution, would you give as much power to these ordinary people that can elect the Congress and can elect the president, and if that's pushed down, they can even elect some of the judges.

Would you do that?" And, uh, uh, Jefferson replied, and, and I, I'm quoting exactly, "I can think of no safer depository for the ultimate powers of society than in the people themselves." And then anticipating the objection, "But the, these people themselves, they're not educated.

They can...

They, they don't understand the issues.

They, uh, they could run after some dictator or something else." Anticipating that question, Jefferson said, said...

Hmm

I mean, uh, i- I understand you don't necessarily take a side, but it's something for people to consider.

Oh, yeah.

It, it's one of the options, uh, out there.

And, uh, th- there'll be questions and, and discussion on i- suppose some province did get a clear, uh, majority on a clear question to secede.

That, that's most likely to occur in Quebec, uh, b- before it would ever happen in Alberta.

And of course, Quebec's got a, a provincial election, uh, prior to October the 5th, uh, where this is gonna be the whole debate.

Should it be a sovereign country outside the federation, or should it be a sovereign province within the federation? But, uh, there, there's, uh...

Things like a pension plan or things like Quebec has done, a police, uh-

Is this what you thought was going to happen?

Well, there is this unrest and, you know, several hundred thousand people have signed petitions saying they want to have a say on this issue.

It's quite understandable that this question gets on to the ballot.

But I think, Mike, that particularly the Toronto-based Eastern media completely misrepresent this whole exercise.

This referendum ballot has got 10 questions on it, not just the one that you mentioned.

It's got 10 questions on it, nine of which deal with strengthening the province within the federation.

And the real option facing Albertans, and I think Albertans realize this, but I don't think people outside do.

How strong is it now? Is this still a protest movement, or do you think this is a serious political movement?

I mean, she's been pretty clear she's gonna be in the remain camp.

Well, she's much more clear than that.

I- in fact, one of the causes of this Western angst is the fact that the, particularly the central Canadian media do not give anywhere near the attention to what Albertans' real concerns are or what the premier's positions are.

Her position, which she's articulated, the legislature's articulated it, it's been cast in legislation, it was the product of this Alberta Next panel, is a strong and sovereign province within, not separate from, the Canadian Federation.

A- and she's elaborated on that by saying what that means is, for one thing, uh, increasing the activity of the province in every area that the Constitution currently gives to the provinces, and push the envelope in the areas of joint jurisdiction, uh, such as agriculture or environment, and particularly immigration.

And I think that's a sound position.

It's a position, it's, it's not, not accepting the status quo, and it's not saying secede, but that sovereignty within the federation, I think that's a sound position.

I wonder if you share that optimism about the relationship between Prime Minister Mark Carney and, and Alberta right now, because you certainly had some warnings about him in the last federal election.