But that's a little bit of a guess on my part, just as an outside observer.

Yeah, I could see that.

I think partly in the UK, it's a kind of, it's what people are encouraged to do if they're not doing very well at school, you know, like, oh, you know, you're not very academic, so maybe go into gardening, you know, that's, and so I think that if you are quite academic and you do love learning, then it's not something that you're encouraged to go into.

I think it's changing now.

I think in the last sort of 10 years or so, it's definitely changed.

But yeah, it wasn't at the time.

And I mean, I started out very, I didn't really have, I mean, I've done gardening all my life, but I didn't have any qualifications or any professional experience.

Yeah, or the jam guild.