And this was before the time Volkswagen put that lab in there?

Yes, that was before VAIL, uh, so the Volkswagen Automotive Innovation Lab.

Uh, and Chris started his own lab, and I did actually have-- Um, wa-was part of when VAIL was created.

Uh, in fact, I went even to Volkswagen and helped set up some of the collaboration.

Uh, but so wanted to work with Chris, and then I met a professor named Larry Leifer, uh, who was actually-- So we mentioned earlier Dave Kelly.

Dave Kelly was Larry's first PhD student, also Larry's first dropout, um, that, that instead of finishing his PhD, he, uh, started IDEO.

Uh, but so I met Larry, who was this very artistic, creative kind of guy who was interested in what I call the meta engineering.

They like to be in the dark and hang upside down or something like that.