don't think we talk about it enough in terms of the father's experience of kind of childbirth and the impact and the long-term impact kind of traumatic experiences like that can have enough and I think it's probably down to the fact that you know we're men and we don't open up to each other or talk about our feelings or how kind of that traumatic experience impacts us in in the longer term i think it's something we can certainly get get better at as a as a cohort phil when we talked you mentioned also that i think some of your pregnancy experiences when your wife was pregnant were were also quite tricky

Yeah, that's right.

So you're sort of talking about our second child, our second son.

So my wife's waters break when she was 19 weeks pregnant and we obviously rushed into hospital and she was kept in hospital for...

I don't know, 10 days or something because they sort of literally thought she was going to go into labour at 19 weeks.

She didn't go into labour and she actually carried the baby to 36 weeks and then had a C-section.

But that was...

Like Phil, from your experience working at Pepper Money, how do you view the kind of policy within the business and business? Do you utilise it to its full extent?