How do you think other business owners can kind of utilize that way of doing things? And, you know, how much of an effect has it had for you, do you think?

I think it's probably one of the most underused tactics in the world of, you know, solopreneurship or business ownership.

Like people have this inherent bias for products, services, marketing that people, that other people have put effort into.

There's these studies in Harvard canteens, which you'll know, Chris, where when you can see the chef cooking your meal, you enjoy that meal more.

There's an amazing example of Starbucks.

So Starbucks, I will have told this one to you before, Chris, but I'll tell it to the listeners.

In 2010, they taught their baristas how to parallel pour, which is where they could basically make four cups of latte at once.

don't know,

Yeah.

Some would first see a number which is 150, and they would be told that number has nothing, is, you know, or they would say, "It's nothing to do with your guess," but you're just asked, "Is it higher or lower than this number?" And then give a specific guess.

So it, it, it comes into your s- your awareness, but it's not meant to influence your guess.

Anyway, when it lands on 150, people guess, I think it's 50% higher.

Uh, when it lands on 15, they guess 50% lower in terms of guessing how many countries.

So we are anchored by this initial piece of information.

Now, how do you take that and apply it to a business world? Well, one of the readers of Robert Cialdini's book reads this study and decides that when he introduces his eye-watering price for the B2B software, rather than just saying the price, right before he says it, he, he makes a joke and he says, "By the way, this won't cost you a million dollars." And they sort of giggle 'cause it's like, "Oh yeah, that would be ridiculous.

Yeah.

And I guess that's one of my first questions is you've done many, many podcasts, talked to many behavioral scientists and brain scientists, I mean, how much do you think we as a profession, let's talk about marketing people, I guess business people more widely, how, how aware do you think we are collectively of, of our own limitations?

In some ways, marketers are especially aware.

I think a good marketer is a marketer that can empathize, and a m- and a person that can empathize is someone who can y- see the flaws in other people and think, "Oh, I've got those same flaws too." So I think that's, th- I think marketers are good at being aware of their own limitations in terms of understanding the brain.

I think that said, marketing in general is still not building itself around human psychology, which I think is a bit of a mistake.

So when I...

I, I, I'm one of those weirdos that actually studied marketing at university.

I, I said this at a conference recently, the marketing meetup conference.

We, we, we, we see ourselves as the change makers, don't we? And that puts us right up against loss aversion, 'cause when you go to that crucial meeting and you're going to see the MD, you know, the reward of, of break- of, of achieving something really good in marketing, how is that offset by the fear of the boss saying, "No, you're an idiot," and us losing our professional kudos? And I think it's one of the underlying reasons why perhaps although we know we should be braver, perhaps sometimes loss aversion means we just don't take that risk.