What role does that translation play in popularizing Sun Tzu's teachings in the West? And would it be fair to say that without that translation, we would possibly, I guess, not even be having this podcast? It might not have become as popular as it is today in the popular culture.

Yeah, well, that's my argument in this book, which is that Griffith was the right person the right man at the right time.

And he was supported by Littleheart, Basil Littleheart.

So he, he was, he hit that moment.

He was a China Marine.

He had fought, he was a, he was, I mean, let's just say Griffith was an extraordinary individual, just extraordinary.

amazing and he had he'd been in china he had learned chinese he learned classical chinese uh he he did his d phil at oxford after he retired yeah so this is a guy who he went into the marine corps He fought all over the world.

yeah yeah yeah and we're we're nine times out of ten using our modern kind of yeah viewpoint to to judge them um just coming to the last question yeah what are the implications of the western interpretation of sun tzu's teaching for future military and strategic planning and i guess also just in general considering how deep sun tzu's art of war has kind of seeped into modern culture in terms of kind of i'm sure you can get quotes with all sorts of on all sorts of kind of paraphernalia and apparel and t-shirts and hats and whatever um and then even parasail and even what you were talking about earlier about her holding the book upside down even that goes to show just how embedded yeah the art of war is as a as part of modern culture so yeah i guess what are some of those implications