Mm-hmm.

which really, when you think about it, like most illnesses, is uncontrollable even for doctors and specialists.

So you were on a sticky wicket, as we say, right from the word go.

And, you know, it sort of...

The sad thing is that you feel that you could have been more help, but we were so young, we literally didn't know our arse from our elbow.

So we were useless at it.

And there was a lot of older people there that were just as useless as we were, which seems very sad even to this day.

What do you think makes each band special?

This is a new, unique set list that you're doing for this particular...

Yeah, I mean, what's happening is that my quest when I began was to play every record... that New Order and Joy Division ever recorded, wrote and recorded.

I've done it with Joy Division, played every song that Joy Division ever wrote and recorded and actually finished off a song for Joy Division.

New Order, I'm well on the way.

Get Ready is now the 14th LP we've played.

We've only got two left.

So I don't know what I'm going to do at the end of that.

Are there any songs that are particularly poignant to you or even sometimes difficult to play with those memories?

Yeah.

Uh, at the end of the classical concert that we did in Sydney Opera House with Joy Division, I was really, really touched by that.

I've lived with his lyrics long enough now to know, and I was with him when he was writing them and when he was doing them, so I do share those feelings, but they're personal feelings, personal memories that I have from being, recording Closer particularly.

When we play particularly The Eternal and Decades together, I can see that the gravity of the feelings in that influences people.

And I must admit, you know, the first time we toured Closer, oh, man, if I had a pound for every grown man I saw cry, uh, you know, on that tour, it was incredible the effect that hearing that LP.

And it was wonderful for me, but my wonder, my son played Joy Division.

He played bass on Unknown Pleasures and Closer when we toured it, and he was the same age as I was when I did it first time.

It's, it's hard to see how the band would have gone without the, the hand of Peter Saville or some of those other players.