Peter, what do you think?

Yeah, I mean, one of the pieces that was really... healthy and helpful to do was to start diving into not only the success stories, but the stories that didn't end well.

And I think Steve and I have a similar conclusion.

There's a lot of case studies that it didn't go well.

And I don't know if I could say one or the other, Bill, I would have a both and.

Now, there are plenty of stories where the board just didn't even understand what they were looking for and didn't.

And it just went off the rails.

Peter, how have you seen this idea of seasons factoring into what's needed at the key level?

Yeah.

And I love that.

And you cannot read the gospel without concluding God cares deeply about us, and especially about those, uh, on the margins, the, the, the widow, the orphan, the alien.

They are loved and precious, and so we should too.

But also what is clear is over time, Jeff, as that model went forward of seeing needs and then giving solutions, that that actually has some unintended negative consequences, and it starts to create some cycles of dependency, and it actually doesn't solve the problem.

If you give food today, someone's gonna be hungry when? Tomorrow.

Mm.

We believe that if you want to address these needs, you've got to unleash and equip individuals to solve their own problems in their own communities.

What was that like?

Yeah, I mean, so one of the moments was we were in Red Square and Boris Yeltsin was having a campaign rally.

And here we are, you know, 20-year-old kids trying to learn and...

And it just was so profound to realize the significant and seismic changes that were happening at that moment and to actually be there.

And what was really interesting is it wasn't just there, but we were also traveling through France and through England and through Germany.

through Switzerland and so we were traveling through different parts of Europe and the former Soviet Union and St. Petersburg.

It just was profound to have that variety of experiences and to look at businesses.

How do you resolve this tension?

[laughs]

... and you probably made a bunch of mistakes.

Uh, all of that is indeed true.

And, uh, yeah, I mean, some of the, some of the-- when you look back at some of the pivot points, I think one of the most, uh, consequential ones was when we were growing really fast in one of the, uh, places where we were serving, and we actually, uh, received a, an award, um, in the way that we were innovating to serve in a post-conflict setting.

And, uh, all of our numbers, all of our charts looked good.

They were all up and to the right.

And if you grow without underlying quality, all that means is you've got a bigger mess on your hands.

But did you also have outside perspective coming to bear on it from other, other leaders that you knew in other organizations, people who had gone before with something similar?