of

setting up military zones and things of that nature for the eventual assembly of submarines or the visits of submarines, which people have been completely unaware of.

They've hardly been informed at all.

And the high-handedness of that strikes me as being a matter of some significance.

Additionally, particularly in Western Australia, we heard evidence from a former chief medical officer that the level of planning preparedness, having strategies and policies and protocols and so on and so forth in place for people who may be within impact zones if there were to be an accident of some kind with a nuclear powered vessel was minimal.

We also had the issue raised, which hadn't been on our radar specifically about what the impact of having large numbers of foreign-based troops stationed on Australian soil would mean.

Again, to go to the Western Australian base, originally the public statement was that there'd be around about 1,200 troops that would be provided for there.

And if that is true, aren't all other questions

What was that like for you to take something that was, on a global scale, so localized, even on an Australian scale, a conversation that really wasn't happening broadly in the main, and see it go so far wide?

Well, I don't think we, we, we never knew it'd go as far as it did.

You know, like, you, you never really know.

And I think that it all happened so quickly that you don't have much time to sit back and spend a lot of time reflecting on it.

But I think if we hadn't been out or we hadn't spent time with people, if we didn't, uh, in a sense get the okay to reflect what we'd seen, then we might've been stepping out of a place that we should've been.

But we felt that we had really strong and enduring ...

And by the way, e- even until Rob passed away, but we still trek out there occasionally and touch base with people.

Can you tell me about the alchemy of playing with him, of being beside him, and being within that, that force of energy that was Rob Hirst?

And that's exactly what I was getting at in terms of whether we feel, uh, is there a sort of a caution, a stroke torpor, in Australian political circles about actually saying these things out loud, lest the Americans become offended?

Well, look, [laughs] there, there's a long history of, of, of the interaction between the two countries.

Uh, and we could go back a while, but, uh, I guess one of the things which really strikes me is that we've gone back and had a look at the white papers, uh, that have been produced around defense, and they make, they make a pretty consistent point about Australia's defense policy, that it ought to be in Australia's national interest.

Now, the definition of that and how that is mediated, how that is implemented, is obviously a matter for both the parliaments, for political leadership, but it's a matter for the public as well.

And there isn't much confidence, I can report back to you and your listeners, in the United States as if you, what, what you might want to say is a reliable partner in the multilateral world at this point in time for reasons that you quite often canvas on Global Roaming.

But, but subsidiary to that is the idea that really what seems to be emerging is that it's the drive to have a forward projection from Australia in the event that perhaps the United States is involved in conflict in the region, and the obvious one is if there were to be a flashpoint over Taiwan, and the extent to which Australian forces and the Australian people themselves would be drawn into that, and is AUKUS a part of that or not?

And of course, it is bipartisan, that you're not able to get any friction that does help people, oddly enough, to engage.

No.

Syllabus?

Uh, well not straight into the syl...

This is a question that we've asked ourselves, and we've sought more information about that.

But what seems to be happening is that on the ground there's a fairly significant, uh, public relations campaign underway which is designed to try and make AUKUS essentially more palatable and potentially more, um, acceptable to the local population.

At the same time, when we had our hearings in Fremantle, we heard from the, uh, a former chief medical officer of Perth, a senior Perth bureaucrat, that there was in fact no nuclear safety plan in place around the base of Stirling in the suburb of Rockingham at all.

So what we're discovering is a process which I would describe, I, I find it, I, you know, I'm real- really struggling to find the words for it, David, because it's the biggest thing we've ever done, uh, as a nation post-war.

Uh, certainly the biggest defense expenditure in one single hit that we've ever had.

Is this just going to be a gesture, or do you see some possibility of the government changing course on AUKUS?

Syllabus?

Uh, well, not straight into the syll-- This is a question that we've asked ourselves, and we've sought more information about that.

But what seems to be happening is that on the ground, there's a fairly significant, uh, public relations campaign underway, which is designed to try and make AUKUS essentially more palatable and potentially more, um, acceptable to the local population.

At the same time, when we had our hearings in Fremantle, we heard from the, uh, a former chief medical officer of Perth, a senior Perth bureaucrat, that there was in fact no nuclear safety plan in place around the base of Stirling in the suburb of Rockingham at all.

So what we're discovering is a process which I would describe...

I, I find it-- I'm, you know, I'm real- really struggling to find the words for it, David, because it's the biggest thing we've ever done, uh, as a nation post-war.

Uh, certainly the biggest defense expenditure in one single hit that we've ever had.

Is this just gonna be a gesture, or do you see some possibility of the government changing course on AUKUS?

Uh, just did you, the band and yourself ever, uh, cross over into football clubs, as in did you do gigs at all for the AFL or even other competitions? We don't just stick to AFL here, but AFL, the clubs or anything like that at, at any time?

No, we didn't.

It's a, it's a, it's a good question, Tony, because, uh, back when McLachlan was running it and when the Oils came back and we did the Big Great Circle Tour, and we, you know, we traveled around the world, we played to a lot of people and, uh, we played at home.

It was amazing, you know.

Lots of folk came out to listen to us play and, uh, you know, we were really delighted about it.

And I'd always said to the Oils, "Oh, I'd love to do a Grand Final," you know? Um, and they're not, they're not quite as sport obsessed as me, and they were like, "Oh, really? What, what do you..." [laughs] Anyway, we did have some preliminary discussions, but my feeling has always been, and I'll just wade straight in, uh, that the entertainment always...

And look, I get it, you know.

That's it

Uh, just did you, the band and yourself ever, uh, cross over into football clubs, as in did you do gigs at all for the AFL or even other competitions? We don't just stick to AFL here, but AFL, the clubs or anything like that at, at any time?

No, we didn't.

It's a f- it's a, it's a good question, Tony, because, uh, back when McLachlan was running it and when The Oils came back and we did the Big Great Circle Tour and we, you know, we traveled around the world, we played to a lot of people and, uh, we played at home.

It was amazing, you know.

Lots of folk came out to listen to us play and, uh, you know, we were really delighted about it.

And I'd always said to The Oils, "Oh, I'd love to do a grand final," you know? Um, and they're not, they're not quite as sport obsessed as me, and they were like, "Oh, really? Well, what do you..." [laughs] Uh, anyway, we did have some preliminary discussions, but my feeling has always been, and I'll just weigh straight in, uh, that the entertainment always...

And look, I get it, you know.

That's it

What actually is AUKUS? Before we find out some of the bad sides of it, what was it intended to do and when did it come about?

So AUKUS came about with an announcement, a surprise announcement by former Prime Minister Scott Morrison of an agreement between Australia, the United States and the United Kingdom to develop and build a new class of nuclear-powered submarine which would be made available to Australia at some time in the future.

One of the things that we heard when the inquiry did our first submission and heard submissions and did our first hearing in Melbourne, I beg your pardon, was that the information about Orcas, even at the time, was pretty scant.

But essentially, the idea is that Australia pays these countries to build up their submarine building capacity and technological capacity.

In the case of the United States, they now essentially sell to us three used submarines, originally it was going to be two used and one used submarine, of a class called the Virginia nuclear powered submarine.

And whilst we're getting those submarines, some years or decades later, probably sometime in the 2040s, but maybe even if they come at all, the late 2040s or early 2050s, designed in the UK, partly developed there and then also in South Australia, in a shipyard in South Australia, another five of the bigger, very expensive of course, AUKUS submarines would be built and would become part of Australia's Defence Force capability.

Accompanying that announcement has been a series of other announcements.

As an ex-candidate for the Nuclear Disarmament Party, that's got to ring some alarm bells for you.

Garrett.

Cool.

All right.

Well, you know, I just, um, I was in my 20s in the 1980s, and I think that when HIV/AIDS happened, it was really unique, um, because first of all, it was so mysterious at first.

Nobody knew what was going on.

They didn't know if it was an infectious thing, if it was a cancer related to poppers or some sort of environmental thing.

So it was really scary.

W- what can, what is the role of patients? What should the role of patients be at this time?

That's crazy.

[laughs] Well, the one thing I can say about it, so look, I don't know the answer to that is, is, is, um, is the truth of it.

What I can say and what I'm seeing, though, is, um, Labor Party branches, in other words, members of the Labor Party, which I am, rank and file members, are putting motions to the branches about AUKUS, and there seem to be more and more of those branches who are responding in that way.

Daniel, I don't want to get caught in the politics of, of what's gonna happen with this discussion in the short term.

Uh, I mean, I'm happy to answer the questions, but that is really a matter for city members, for the caucus, uh, and for Labor branches around Australia.

One of the reasons why I agreed to lead this inquiry was that I don't think it matters whether you're a member of the Labor Party, the Greens, One Nation, or the Coalition.

I think everyone has a stake in really good, thoughtful decisions being taken about our defense, about how we spend this money, and what the implications are of the arrangements that we can see in front of us.

Would backing out now make us more safe or less safe?

So there would be some people thinking, would it be a nightmare for us to even consider getting out of this deal because it would just waste a whole lot more money?

There's $386 billion up to that's been identified for us to have only eight nuclear-powered submarines by the 2040s.

There's no factoring in the cost for... building from the ground up a medium and high level radioactive waste containment facility.

You know, we can get up to about half a trillion dollars of likely expense.

And then what for me is the kicker on all of this.

I can't find a single big defence project in Australia's history that has run the time or on budget.

And the complexity of these AUKUS subs is mind-boggling.

What do you say to those people?

What are you hoping to achieve?

We'll give Australians the opportunity to ask the questions that haven't been answered up to now about this extraordinary deal.

And to really do what I think should have happened in the beginning, which is to properly ventilate everything around August.

I mean, you've been covering it a bit and we're starting to see more and more drips and drabs of information about the program emerge as things go wrong or things run late.

But the fact is this was the most significant event and by far the most costly decision made in secret by an Australian government, tying us to two other sovereign governments and taking out an extraordinary amount of taxpayers' money on a proposition which has got a lot of distinct and very difficult complexities and potential problems lying up ahead.

And Australians have never had a chance to have a debate about it, to ask the questions or to hear from the experts.

So that's what this public inquiry will do.

Who are the other four commissioners who will be presiding with you?

Uh, what are you hoping to achieve?

We'll give Australians the opportunity to ask the questions that haven't been answered up to now about this extraordinary deal, and to really do what I think should have happened in the beginning, which is to properly ventilate everything around AUKUS.

I mean, you've been covering it a bit, and we're starting to see more and more drips and drabs from information about the program emerge as things go wrong or things run late.

But the fact is, this was the most significant, and by far the most costly decision made in secret by an Australian government, tying us to two other sovereign governments and taking out an extraordinary amount of taxpayers' money on a proposition which, um, has got a lot of distinct and very difficult complexities and potential problems lying up ahead.

And Australians have never had a chance, uh, to have a debate about it, to ask the questions, or to hear from the experts.

So that's what this public inquiry will do.

Uh, who are the other four commissioners who will be presiding with you?

I'll announce it at eleven, and I, I won't announce it any earlier as some of them are probably in transit and we'll, we'll get out-- they'll get out of a [chuckles] a, a train station or an airport and suddenly find a microphone now possibly stuck under their thing.

What questions will you be looking to get to the bottom of?

So we've got a reasonably extensive terms of reference.

The basic question is, will AUKUS protect us? Does it make us safe? And how much is it gonna cost? Has it been thought through in a way that stacks up when you actually look at what's planned? The incredibly large amount of money that is being expended on finally delivering eight nuclear-powered submarines somewhere in the 40s or maybe even the late 40s and early 50s of this decade.

We'll be looking at issues around employment impacts.

Have they been analyzed and thought through? Issue of the safe disposal of radioactive waste.

One of the astonishing things about the agreement that's been signed is that it essentially commits Australia to building a medium and high level nuclear waste infrastructure facility from scratch to safely store the volumes of high level waste that eventually these submarines will produce.

But there's massive amounts of questions that arise out of that.

Is there any site in Australia that you would consider appropriate for such a purpose?