So there must be plenty of stories or experiences that convince you that the work you're doing is making a difference, right?

Yeah, yeah.

It's, you know, I met Michael five years ago.

He asked me to be the lead advisor for a state program he was doing with the Washington Association of School Administrators.

And over the two years of the program, it was hybrid.

We were working with about 110 directors of teaching and learning from across the state.

um we just became really good friends and by the end of the two years their grant was gone and we just we went into self-sufficient so people paid to be a part of it for another year or two and by the time that was done i just said i don't want this to end and uh so we wrote our first book together and we're finishing our third book or we have finished our third book it will be on february but it's on this process of instructional leadership collectives and I guess the story that we always use as a catalyst is that it's really great to actually find a partner that you can learn from.

I