What sort of happens cognitively when these teams are exposed to pressure for these protracted periods of time under these particular set of circumstances?

Yeah, that's a really good question.

It's a rich question because there are sort of many dimensions to how one would respond.

I think the first point to note is that the pressures are not uniform.

They're not homogeneous across roles.

So we do see quite significant qualitative impact.

differences in the way that the stressors show up for different roles and like and similarly the way in which individuals are being affected by those i'll give you a few examples in a let's say a soft team situation the classic thing we observe now that many people are aware of is alert fatigue And so we're seeing that you've got a lot of incoming information threat, you know, things that look potentially very serious.

sleepless nights, all of these things are problematic to actually we're building some control structures from a human centric view within the organization to make sure we are always on these leading indicators that we don't become susceptible to the lagging ones and that we can really improve the state of play.

But talk to us a little bit, like give us a sense of this training, and then I wanna hear the results.

Yeah, it's really interesting.

So Richard Miller is a clinical psychologist.

He's been practicing about 50 years now, and he's actually on our board.

So we're just so privileged to have the actual developer of the protocol directly involved in the work of Cybermindz, and he's actually shepherding the way in which we customize his protocol, which has had that widespread application in military and emergency responders and other domains.

But Richard's actually helping us to, uh, optimize it for cybersecurity, which is amazing in itself.

But the protocol is a 10-step sequence.

But, but talk a little bit about the AI angle, and then give me your one big takeaway.

It's critical that, of course, there are lessons that come out of an incident and insights, but that blame culture can have a really negative impact more broadly.

I agree.

I think to both of your points, I think culture has a massive bearing on the degree to which stress and trauma become embedded and entrenched or instead are avoided, you know, prevented and healed.

And I think, you know, in the context of that skills crisis, at least shortage, pernicious as it is insidious in this industry, um, you know, the under-resourcing that we hear about constantly.

And the fact that I think ICS2 has just done some research last year that showed 74% of cyber professionals believe now that the current state of cyber security is worse than it's been in the last five years.

So you're really in this perfect storm situation where we've got high levels of burnout.

We've got an attacker skill set and geopolitical tensions that are playing out.

So, Peter, how, and I know you've had quite a bit of success with this, particularly out of the US, but how do you get buy-in to undertake these programs, to invest in these things from senior management, especially prior to an incident, given the importance of building that muscle, but also even if that hasn't happened during or following an incident? What's working?