So Peter Sutherland, that was a, that, you landed a big fish there in terms of deviling for somebody.

So what was he like? Well, he was, he was a very nice man.

He was a very kind man, but he was also a very sensitive man, which is something that people perhaps didn't realize, but I certainly realized because I was working cheek by jowl with him for a year.

And of course, we had quite a lot of conversations, um, going along in the car to various venues Peter became Attorney General, I think a year or two after I'd finished, um, deviling, maybe two, three years.

And by that stage, I had literally built up no practice at all.

It was actually quite a disaster.

I had, however, published an article in the Solicitors' Gazette, which Brian Walsh, who was a Supreme Court judge, was kind enough to mention in a judgment.

Do you think people can then become psychopaths or sociopaths by virtue of kind of just getting sort of caught up in something like, say, a particular religious cult or something along those lines?