How about you?

Well, I think the return of Josh Jacobs is a big one.

And we don't know, again, we don't know what that's going to look like.

He hasn't played in six weeks, but he did have a full training camp, a full offseason, and he's not dealing with an injury.

So from that perspective, I described it the other day, Matt, like, hey, if he had an ankle sprain, And he missed six weeks and then came back and had a full week of practice.

Wouldn't he just be the running back? Wouldn't he just be Josh Jacobs? And I don't know.

I like, I just don't know the science on it.

That's going to be a big part of this game.

What did you see in that game last night against the Cowboys that just gave you kind of an energy and excitement about where this team is headed?

I thought the first quarter was everything you wanted to see from this team.

They come out, I mean, they went bombs away against Chicago.

And I think that it would have been easy to explain that away to they're trying to show up the Bears.

They're trying to bring a little bit of extra juice and just let Jordan Love throw it deep.

That's a really bad defense.

Well, the Cowboys defense is pretty bad too.

And if they clean that up, all of a sudden, where is the ceiling for this team if those things are cleaned up here in the coming weeks?

Rookie edge rushers typically take some time, and I think that kind of got lost in all the hype around Reuben Bain throughout the offseason.

This Packers run game is DOA until further notice.

And that's against anybody, much less a Tampa Bay defense that is perennially a pretty good run defense.

That's going back to the Bruce Arians days.

They're top 10 in DVOA against the run this year as well.

So I think if the Packers are going to be able to run in this game, it is going to be outside defensively.

It is going to be on the edges.

hmm,

And it's like history repeating itself all over again in Green Bay.

At the very least, the Packers had a plan going into the season that was they paid this money to Aaron Banks.

Whether they should have done that or not, I think it's clear they should not have done that.

And I think a lot of people were saying that in real time, right? But Anthony Belton was a second-round pick.

They invested in their offensive line, which is what you should do.

And Brian Higgins took a lot of heat.

Jordan Morgan and Anthony Belton in back-to-back drafts, at the top of the draft, when everyone wanted a corner, everyone wanted a whatever, It turns out you need those guys.

so if these guys come in and they play well does that really save a person's job that probably shouldn't have his job saved in Luke Buckus

is behind that? I mean, do we have to go back to the last year or so of general manager decisions to say what left us in this position that one or two injuries make it this bad?

Yeah, there's definitely a string of decisions made by this front office that leads you to where you are now.

You use a first round pick on Jordan Morgan.

He's been fine, but he hasn't played.

And so he wasn't so much better than Rashid Walker last year in training camp that they could have gone to him.

And at this point, you'd feel like he's solidified in that spot.

If Jordan Morgan had played left tackle all of last year and frankly, guys, maybe he should have.

Or do we have, what, 14 more games of this?

I felt like the Packers were the better team, and it was just, like, this confluence of You know, errors and some shaky officiating and a couple big plays here and there, but it seems like they, I, I thought they had the better of the play for most of the game against Minnesota

To, to your point, the Packers average 6.4 yards per play.

That is one of those usually indicative stats.

The Vikings average 3.9 yards per play.

Y- y- you can't lose that game [laughs] by 17 points.

Like, it should be impossible, John, to lose that game by 17 points, but that is what happened because of turnovers and because the Packers went one of four in the red zone, and the, the Vikings went four of four.

Like, that's the difference, and that, and I think we have to remind ourselves that if, if you're Packers fans, that the margins in the NFL really are that small.

I, I think this is a solid Green Bay receiver group, and again, Christian Watson's a, a guy who I think the Jets may have trouble with because both Thomas and Stephens, the outside corners, are not known for speed.

There are some clingers to Iowa glory there.

Yeah, certainly.

And so I think you're going to see a lot of that.

And I think it's also worth pointing out here.

I wrote about this earlier this offseason for The Leap, a newsletter I would love for everyone to subscribe to, is when Tucker Kraft was healthy, they had one of the highest rates of too tight end in the NFL.

And once he got hurt, it just didn't make sense to do that.

And I think the addition of Johnnie Smith, like they could have just gone and gotten... cast-off ex-veteran blocker, and they didn't.

I

Is that the one thing keeping us away from Josh Jacobs having finality in this case?

I think it is not only the one thing that keeps us from having finality in this case.

I think it is the thing that the NFL is most afraid of because we know how this changed the Ray Rice case once upon a time.

And we know how this changed the Kareem Hunt case once upon a time.

And what the league is, unfortunately, like I know this is cynical, but like the league is most concerned in these cases about the blowback, about the PR of these sorts of things.

And they do not want to be seen as lenient in these cases.

And so the policy says, and they created a policy to try and avoid all of the machinations that can lead to those questions by saying, we have a policy.

To you, do the Packers have a stable, sturdy, dependable option at running back that can help them win the division?

This is one of those matchups where both teams just are so intriguing to me.

I, I love it.

We'll get into some of these players coming up.

We got more on a Locked On Packers, Locked On Broncos preseason Crossover Thursday.

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It's easy to play.

I, I just, I'm still holding out hope there, and I'm fascinated by his development and progression, because it means so much more, especially early in the year for that, for that Packers team.

Um, what have you liked and what do you still have a question about when it comes to the secondary?

Well, I, I think, you know, it's... y- you have to like Brandon Cisse, and him just coming in...

I mean, the guy's 20 years old though, and he played four years in college.

Like I d- I don't know how the math works there, but somehow that's true, and he was supposed to be a developmental corner, and comes in and just immediately looks the part.

Now, I don't know if that says more about the other guys on the field or, o- or, or Cisse, but it seems like it says more about Cisse right now, who, uh, i- it just has a better understanding of space, of, of scheme than I've, I thought personally he would have coming in here.

And I'll be honest, and we've talked about this before, Bill, about the rotating and, and some of the cross-training stuff that the Packers do with offensive linemen and all this stuff.

I, I love that it doesn't matter across defensive coordinators, offensive coaches, doesn't matter.

Yeah.

Right.

We don't know if Anthony Belton can be any better than he was as a rookie when he was inconsistent.

We don't know if Sean Ryan can be any better than he was last year.

But they have continuity.

So it's gonna be a really interesting tensile test for the value of continuity and, and both the s- the receiver group and the offensive line.

They kinda streamlined this down.

They're not competing for their jobs, but they are competing to get better from what we saw last year because I think, especially in the case of the offensive line, they have to be better.

Mm-hmm.

Yep.

Um, and I think that's most coaches, right? Um, they don't think like front office people.

Like if you're Brian Gutekunst, you're screaming, "Hey, throw the ball to Matthew Golden, please.

Stop, stop throwing the ball to Bow Melton for crying out loud." But that's just not how it works.

Um, but it, it did not allow them.

And this was, I was saying this going into 2025.

I was saying, "Look, you have to figure out who your best guys are and th- then you have to feature them.

Takes a while.

Yep.

But like I just think having, having a complete team that also has some star talent is the best way toward a championship.

It's not just having an elite quarterback.

What we've always said is having an elite offense is the most straightforward way, the most simple way to have a great team, and having a great quarterback was the easiest path to having a great offense.

I'm not sure that's true anymore.

I think you have to have good talent, and you have to have...

I think the number one differentiator that we're seeing lately is coaching is absolutely critical to all of this.

Of course

Mm-hmm

...

in Philadelphia, in part because that's part of the problem with him is you just, he was not reliable or consistently in the right places.

And so he geometrically makes this offense fit, and he's been their answer for man coverage since he's been in the league.

If you play man coverage against the Packers, they are going to use Christian Watson to try and beat you, and he's been one of the better players doing it last year.

Since he came off the ACL, Luke, last year, he was top 15 in yards per route run.

That is bang off the ACL.

Um, but like, what's the argument for this one's gonna be different than the last three?

Right.

Uh, in the first half when he had time to throw, Jordan Love absolutely lit on fire this Bears defense.

And then in the second half, they're blowing protections.

Rasheed Walker is, is playing as bad a game as I can remember a Packers offensive line playing since, like, Alan Barber was, was in town.

And, uh, like, it all fell apart, and that's just the nature of it.

What I think is heartening though, Bill, is last year, you mentioned metrics.

The Packers were top ten in DVOA, so that's efficiency adjusted for schedule.

Yep.

Right.

Uh, in the first half when he had time to throw, Jordan Love absolutely lit on fire this Bears defense.

And then in the second half, they're blowing protections.

Rasheed Walker is, is playing as bad a game as I can remember a Packers offensive line playing since, like, Allen Barber was, was in town.

And, uh, like, it all fell apart.

And that's just the nature of it.

What I think is heartening though, Bill, is last year, you mentioned metrics.

Yep.

And

that's why I think one of the one of like we talked about, you know, Tucker Craft and Michael Parsons and Zach Tom, they missed the game.

But that whole game flipped when Adrian Cooper got hurt because he is one of those guys.

that the play is never dead.

And sideline to sideline, that guy's a maniac.

And you know who else is like that, Bill? Zaire Franklin.

And now they have two of them.

So, to me, if you had three or four things that really need to happen for this team to elevate itself to a true Super Bowl contender, what would that be?

He

was third in MVP odds going into Denver.

And they're 9-3-1 in the second half with a two-score lead before the wheels, they don't just fall off.

Like, they hit a landmine and exploded off with all the injuries that they suffered in the second half of that game.

Like, he was in that... position and the offensive line point bill i think is such a good one because this is the worst offensive line last year's offensive line was the worst offensive line play we've seen gosh in a long time i mean since like don barclay was patrolling the left tackle role uh in green bay like it's been a while since we've seen something a right tackle what it's been i try to block that that out of my mind because it was a watch um but just getting a little bit more solidified there and i'll also say bill Matt LaFleur's got to take the leash off.

It's got to be time to just let Jordan Love go be not what Aaron Rodgers was, because he's not Aaron Rodgers, but just in terms of early down passing and second and long.

How about you let Jordan Love play quarterback instead of handing the ball on inside zone to Josh Jacobs 14 times a game? There are some little levers that they can pull.

It was on his show.

What do you think of this team and the moves that they have made?

I, I think it is about as box checky an off-season as Brian Gutekunst has ever had.

Like, they knew they needed help at linebacker.

They replaced Quay Walker with Zaire Franklin.

They knew they needed a cornerback.

They go out and they get Benjamin St-Juste, who's played in a version of this defense last year in LA.

They used their first, their first pick, but their second round pick on Brandon Cisse.

Right.

Was this where you thought Green Bay would go?

I, I thought this was where Green Bay would want to go, whether or not they were gonna have someone available to them that they liked.

I, I was certainly not sure of that.

In fact, we talked a lot during the pre-draft process that I thought the move for Green Bay was gonna be to move back because someone like Brandon Cisse, who was expected to go off the board in the early forties based on, you know, the, the consensus and, and all the different rankings that are out there, I, I don't think the Packers thought there was a chance that this guy was going to be available to them, and the b- the board fell just the right way.

We always hear, Kevin, every, every team, you know this, they go, "He was the highest graded guy left on our board by far," and they're usually lying, right? But this is one of those moments where you're like, no, that actually would make sense because he was, you know, ESPN, NFL Network, whatever, like he was one of the highest graded guys left.

We expected him to go, you know, five, eight, 10 picks sooner than this.

And what is he gonna do for this Green Bay defense? Where does he slot in? What are his strengths and weaknesses, and why do you think he was the guy for Green Bay?

I think, uh, part of it is the upside.

How can those two things connect? How can you be one of the 8 or 10 best coaches in the NFL, but you're only in the playoffs because of the new playoff rules?

Well, let's remember in 2023, they were the 7-seed.

in a year where they had completely reset the roster, coming off the post-Aaron Rodgers era.

They moved on from Aaron Rodgers, and essentially every major contributor on that 2023 team was either a rookie, a first-year starter, or a second-year player.

That was the entire offense.

They were the youngest core offense in modern NFL history, and they end up, they beat the Lions on Thanksgiving, they beat the Chiefs, They beat the Vikings and the Bears at home to get into the playoffs, and then they go on the road as touchdown underdogs against the Dallas Cowboys and beat the brakes off Mike McCarthy, of course, because it had to rhyme with Packers history, and Dak Prescott in Dallas, and they gave the eventual NFC champs, the 49ers, everything they could handle in Santa Clara.

And then the next year, they win 11 games.

job in Green Bay?

But do you like the moves that they have made thus far? I think what the

moves that they've made thus far have done is offer clear, to me anyway, clear upgrades over some of the players that they had.

I think Zaire Franklin is a clear upgrade over Quay Walker.

Now Quay Walker in a year or two maybe, you know, you feel like there's still some upside there.

But I feel like Quay Walker is one of the all-time hypothetical football players in Green Bay.

Like the idea of what he could be, the delta between what he could have been and what he was is monstrous.

And I think there's still a perception of him based on what he could be.

My biggest fear is that the depth will not necessarily be there if there's some injuries that really kind of beset this team, you know? That's I mean, that's the

Is there a rumor floating around out there that intrigues you that you would say this might be viable?

Well, let's start with the conversations around, maybe not a rumor with the Packers directly, but let's start with the idea that the Eagles might make Jalen Carter available.

I mean, I think that's a conversation.

Now, do the Packers have the draft capital to do that? I would assume Philly is going to want a first-round pick in that conversation.

If Jalen Carter for Max Crosby, which was something that was reported... was at least discussed then you have to think that that's what he's worth but that would be where i would start you have to at least make some calls do they have the packers have some players that might interest philly since they would probably want to win too um but i i do like the idea of and this was something that was that i had a discussion about probably two weeks ago was hey you know we're talking about calais campbell and dalvin tomlinson these guys who are free agents But what about, and Javon Hargrave, who we knew was going to get cut, what about Josh Sweat in Arizona, who went to play for Jonathan Gannon? And then when free agency started, and I noted this with interest, Bill, on Monday, there was a report out of Arizona from a local media person there saying Josh Sweat, when Jonathan Gannon was fired, went to Cardinals management and said, I came here to play with Gannon.

I want to trade.

Now, they're under no obligation to do it, But now that the Packers have cleared Rashawn Gary's salary off the books, it would basically be a one-for-one replacement of Rashawn Gary in terms of a run-stuffing defensive end.

Do you agree?

What happened?

Well, we did, we did a lot of reporting about this over at The Leap, um, because we had, uh, some, some information on, on what happened there.

And then, you know, the longer it goes, the more you get in that situation.

I, I'll say this because it, it wasn't just what happened at practice.

He came into practice, my understanding is there was something that had happened off the field.

Um, he was not in a good head space, and came in and was just not in the game plan the way that he thought he could help the team, and there was a blowup.

And he was, they, he was told, "Hey, you know, stay, stay home and, and cool off and, and we'll get back to you." The rest of the season, it wasn't like he wasn't getting his numbers, like he wasn't getting his touches.

[laughs]

Right.

And you can't, you just can't have that.

That can't seep into your mindset.

You have to believe, "We are good enough, I am good enough, and let's go figure this out." And so, I, what I wanna know is, institutionally, are they willing to have difficult conversations in that building? And is Brian Gutekunst gonna have that with Matt LaFleur? Is Ed Policy gonna have that with Brian Gutekunst and Matt LaFleur? Or is that all just, "Hey, we're, we're just gonna keep doing what we're doing.

We, we believe in it, and nothing's gonna change"? I think there's value in continuity, to be sure, but I think you have to be willing to say, "Are there certain things that we do, we could do better?" And that, that assessment has to be constant.

It has to be every single week.

Right.

Um, that we, we had some reporting that, hey, you know, they're gonna actually change this power structure back to the more traditional power structure where the GM is gonna have that, ma- is gonna be able to make that call.