So how can career maps help individuals see more options for themselves even if their company doesn't have a clear path laid out for them?

It's important to lay this out, uh, appropriately 'cause a lot of people, uh, kind of say...

Well, most organizations, I'd say, have, have nothing.

They don't even talk about this concept of a career map.

Then we get into the ones that are gonna say, "Hey, we have, uh, career maps, but we just, it's in theory.

We don't actually talk about it." And then there's organizations that have maybe what we call career blueprints, and it says, "Hey, if you wanna get into product management, then you will do this and have a couple of skills." So this is, uh, a document, and we're gonna come to the bottom half of the front of our, our sheet of paper, and we're gonna, on the left side, we're just gonna write past, present, future.

And you might say, "Pete, gosh, this sounds a lot like my resume or my LinkedIn." Well, maybe at first, and we can utilize that as we're getting started, but past, present, future.

[laughs]

If I said that to you today, what do you think?

what is it in reality or what could it be? Let's just check the box.

In reality, talent management is, hey, I'm going to talk to my employees every so often when I need to, right, wrong, or indifferent.

And I'm going to maybe give them a little bit of time and space to air their dirty laundry, but they don't really feel safe.

In most instances, some companies do a great job of this, but they're not able to truly share what's on their mind.

They don't know which questions to ask.

They don't know where they can go or grow.

What's the hardest thing about recruiting these days?

So how have you seen that take off?

It definitely has blown up over the last 25 years.

It existed in spurts.

You can find references to University of Wisconsin clubs and whatnot going back into the early 1980s.

But it was in 1993 MUFA was specifically founded and it was founded to bring the world championships here.

to bring a Worlds event here.

And Brad Wendt and other people who are the kind of originators of MUFA back in the day really imagined us being a host city for an Olympic-style event.

But in the same