So when you were like, when bass kind of found its way to you and like fueled by the Beatles as a kid, like with the effigies, how'd you guys, what was like the initial, can you walk me through like the initial start, the initial history?

Oh, well, one of the starts is I had an older brother that had a lot of instruments laying around.

So there was a bass around for me to play around with.

And there was guys, uh, He had a little band, so they would show me how to play certain things.

So that was also part of how I got into bass.

I got into punk rock in 1978.

I was just telling a story.

i mean like what drove you guys to keep going

Well, obviously, f- you know, for those of our listeners who may not know the true history of The Effigies and the importance that The Effigies played in Midwest music culture, was, was it a, um, a shared love of music that brought the four of you guys together initially? Or what, how did you find each other back then?

I met, uh, Steve at Neo's and, uh, found out he played the drums, and I was learning bass, and I never played with a drummer before.

So we made plans that, you know, to jam.

And then, uh, his best friend at the time was John Kenzley, so eventually John joined us on guitar.

Um, but we did have that same, you know, love of, of this.

I mean, the, when the punk scene, when I got into it, '79, it was so new and fresh.

Well, it was actually '78.

Um, how's it been playing live more the last few years?