When you see a founder who's not making the course correction, How do you, as an investor, how do you move them off that heading and get them onto the right one?

That's a great question because it's a delicate balance, right? We want founders that have high agency and really mostly want to tell us, screw off, don't tell me what to do.

That's mostly the attitude we want.

But we do need founders who have enough self-awareness and situational awareness to know when the advice comes.

either our advice or the environment is telling them, hey, this thing that you thought you were like, not because everyone knows you're never 100%, but you thought you're 95% sure you should go this way.

Eventually life smacks in the face enough and you realize I can't solve it.

I shouldn't solve it.

How do you, in that first conversation, how do you assess character? How do you read people for this? Obviously, they're putting on their best possible mask to make you want to go work with them.

Mm-hmm.

Uh, same thing with Mark Suster at Upfront.

Uh, I got to know Mark as an angel, and, and, and beyond just reading, but, like, talking to Mark about the inside baseball of venture.

Uh, Ron Conway when he was an angel, and, and had a lot of time with him to learn.

And just all these people, I put their little tidbits together.

But then fundamentally, I, I'm a big believer in strategy.

And when I looked at the world, I said, "Hey, what do I believe?" After my first couple years of just...

Mm-hmm.