and did that for years very successfully I think you had lots I've obviously seen behind the scenes of how that's been in that leadership role and I think you had you're a great leader you've got you had brilliant people and everyone was on board with your vision I know that there was a life event that made you become self-employed but did you feel tell me about that and tell me about how ready you felt to take that creative director role finally

so taking the creative director role was A no brainer.

And it's, I've been thinking about this recently thinking, did I need to be appointed? And I'm glad I went with that route because actually there is a lot I learned through that period.

But looking back now, I don't think it was absolutely necessary because I think there's actually a lot more and I see it as I understand more about the small business world.

There's a lot more that comes from doing and learning that way.

And I think you get more experience and understanding and a better range of skills by just doing and learning along the way than you do necessarily of being a role in a place because the work was different.

But it's not like, say, 20 years experience.

all you could do sometimes was sit on the sofa and watch various shows that