It's, so much of it is really genuine and just between her and her fans.

Right.

And you could say it's all, i- you know, she's putting on a show if she were to only have done that later on in her career.

But the, the fact is that she started doing that when she had, you know, a handful of fans.

And she just kept doing it because it's, she's true to who she is, and that's just...

She just seems like such a great person.

And so yes, of course there's a lot of parasocial stuff going on, and I have a whole chapter in my book about it.

Yeah.

How did you identify that this was not only a problem, but one that you could solve?

So...

I mean, we all knew it was a problem by then.

The second the tickets went on sale for the Eros tour, I remember I was in Florida walking around with my family and I was like, oh my God, all the tickets sold in the pre-sale or they canceled the general sale because the pre-sale, they sold too many tickets, something like that.

And then all of a sudden, everything was on StubHub and stuff for thousands of dollars.

I had never seen that in my life.

I grew up going to Taylor shows and I would always be on the floor.

I knew a little bit of what the book publishing

... uh, how have you been able to turn that into money in your pocket?

Well, it's interesting.

For me, it happened super, super organically.

I was in LA, and I met this-- I connected with this girl who followed my page, and she was a talent agent.

She was like, "Let me rep you and get you brand deals." And I was like, "You think that's gonna work on a fan account?" And she was like, "Well, now that people know who you are, like, might as well try." And, and it did, and, and it start...

The brand deals started rolling in.

And I think the key is even if you think, like, "Okay, what brand would resonate with my audience?" Or, "How can I make it relevant to my audience?" There- there's always a way to make anything relevant to your audience.

Is, like, what's kinda step one, step two, step three? Like, what, where do you, what do you get in and start, you know, playing with when you first start?

Yeah.

Um, I am not posting exclusive, like, Taylor Swift updates when they are available everywhere, you know? And I would never want to do that.

So I, I, I said no at first, and then I came up with the idea.

I was like, "Okay, well, I'm spending entire days verifying these concert tickets and helping people sell them to other fans and, like, monitoring the group chats and everything." And I was like, "Let me start posting those tickets on the subscription platform." So, that's what I di- did, and I knew I was gonna get some backlash for it, as, you know, people always do on social media.

But I, I did it, and I charged, like, three, $4 a month if you wanted, um, an opportunity to-... to get those face value tickets that I was posting.

'Cause, or you could just, you know, go to StubHub and pay 10 grand, five grand, whatever.

But, um, I, I wanted to help as many people get to the Eras Tour before it ended as possible, and I also wanted it to be sustainable for me.

I'm wondering as a fan, what you think of that?

Talk to me about how you got involved, why you got involved, and what the impact of your involvement led to.

Yeah.

So the way it started was people would DM me and say, like, "I have extra tickets and I want another Swiftie to get them at face value." And so that, it, I mean, it all started because of those people, 'cause they could have easily gone to, like, StubHub and resold them, you know? And I started helping connect buyers and sellers through my Instagram account.

So for a majority of The Eras Tour, I was doing that for free, and it did take a lot of time.

And as we were approaching the end of The Eras Tour, probably the last four months, people were, like, scrambling to see it before it was over.

So, and I was getting so many submissions, ticket submissions, and I, I couldn't really handle the, the volume.

And at the same time, I got approached by this subscription company, and they were like, "Hey, we want you to use our platform and post exclusive content on it." And I was like, "Okay, well, exclusive content.

... helped out?

What did you do there?

Yeah.

So I, for a while during the Eras Tour, was helping people if they had extra face value tickets or they, they couldn't make it to a show anymore, or someone they knew couldn't make it anymore and they had extra tickets, they would DM me and be like, "Hey, Livi, I have an extra ticket or an extra three tickets.

I wanna sell them to another fan.

I don't want them to get scalped and, you know, end up on StubHub.

Can you help me?" So for a while d- for, like, the first year and a half of the Eras Tour, I was posting them on my stories and then connecting the buyers and the sellers.

And then this subscription platform approached me and was like, "Hey, we want you to be part of our platform and, like, make ex- post exclusive content on our thing, on our platform." And I was like, "Okay, well, I don't do that kind of exclusive con-" It, it...

It makes me, not that Taylor needs any more money, you know, she's doing great, but it does beg the question of, like, do you think that Taylor should technically be owed some money from your business because it's all built about her? Or is that irrelevant?

Would you tell me your theory as to why she is synonymous with being an authentic woman?

Yeah.

I think at the beginning of her career, it started with, obviously, i- it's always gonna be tied to her lyricism and her relatability.

But I think in her earlier music, she made it okay for us to want fairytales and, you know, not lose that childlike innocence and those, those stories we make up in our heads when we're young about how we picture our lives and the things we want.

And she was just so unapologetically herself and, in telling everybody what she wanted and what her dreams were.

And, you know, she got ridiculed for it so much.

Like, "Oh, she only..." People would say, "She only can write a hit song about ex-boyfriends, and she needs to get broken up with and her heart broken to write music." Like, first of all, it makes me so happy that The Fate of Ophelia is like the biggest song of her career now because it just pr- it proves that that had no value or worth.

Can you tell us about what made you start doing that, what that process looked like about selling tickets?

Yeah

...

even the stuff, you know, there's the bad that comes with the good.

But I think to have one, you need the other, and you just need to accept that.

And if you get heartbroken, I love how she just, she falls so in love, and is, is proud of it, and doesn't, um, feel ashamed of it.

So that's probably my second one.

Um, and lastly, I love, um, it reminds me of the song You'll Always Find Your Way Back Home, I love that she always cherishes where she came from.

So what is your advice to anyone that wants to turn their passion into a career?

How did you become a Taylor Swift fan? Because I'm assuming before you started this whole platform that you started out as a fan, correct? Yeah.

Yeah, of course.

So I was probably, I always listened to her music when I was like eight, nine, 10, 11 years old.

And, but I was more so into like sports at that time.

That was really my passion.

And then as I got older, I was like 13 years old.

I started listening to more and more of Taylor's lyrics and paying more attention.

I