I usually ask people at this juncture, were they good in school? But I feel like you had the school of life from a very young age.

Yeah, it was a good job because I wasn't very good at school.

I hated school.

I hated national school.

I hated secondary school.

I spent about six months in St. Pat's and Navan secondary school and I left that and I went to another technical school and I spent two years there and then I went to an agricultural college for about six months until after Christmas and daddy got sick, very sick and I came home when I was just about 16 to run the place at home and that's when it started really from the time I came back I always had ponies We always had ponies.

And that's when I started racing.

That's an interesting thing because you, obviously, through the 70s, and we come back to 78, you had a big winner in Royal Ascot, but you were... champion trainer off the back of Aidan O'Brien and then you're sandwiched between Aidan O'Brien and Willie Mullins then picking up the mantle from you in that intervening period what was the pressure like to keep pace to maintain to always think if I keep on track I'll get the title but Willie's coming or Aidan's there what's that feeling