Could you say something about these specifically, how they have evolved and how they have impacted thinking about development, whether in research, economic education, and policy spheres?

I think ideological conversion was very, very strong in the 1990s.

And one of the things it's, it's produced from research to policy to just everyday thinking is that even though today I think neoliberalism has been to a large extent discredited, some of its key tenets seem to have sunk into our psyche and be considered like, you know, part of normality, just like we expect, you know, this is the end of winter in Johannesburg, we expect the rain to start, you know, in a few days and to come back.

We think about certain questions without realizing that what we're doing is just reproducing a very neoliberal way of looking at them.

So, you know, I'll say this very openly.

I've always been very puzzled by the way South Africans talk about Black empowerment, because what Black empowerment means effectively is the insertion of Black economic inclusion into a completely financialized understanding of the economy, right? With very complex scorecards and thinking around things like ownership, partial ownership, partial control, et cetera, et cetera, which is completely framed around the dominance of finance.

That's typically been one of the key outcomes of, of neoliberalism.

Maybe I could even take it further to say you are living in South Africa, why does it matter to also spread these teachings beyond the country? What is the philosophy and overview of saying it matters that we teach across the continent or even across the globe, even though where we reside is over here, and we wish for immediate change in our own context? Maybe, Nicolas, you could go first.