Is 7 and a h- how much of the 7 and a half is real because you know you can do it versus you hope you can do it because beyond this year, p- perhaps next year, who the hell knows?

Ours is real because we've shown a track record of living within tight operating allowances.

In fact, our operating allowances have been smaller than that which we campaigned on, whereas Labor's track record is that every single time they blow out the limits they set for themselves in a campaign.

That headroom they're talking about, totally fictional.

They haven't allocated funding for health in the out years.

They haven't allocated funding for their public transport fare cap.

They haven't allocated funding for the National Land Transport Fund, and they haven't allocated funding for their gold-plated pay equity regime So don't believe that 10 and a half billion headroom exists

Do you defend at all in terms of what you've done when you could have probably been a bit harder?

Why aren't you doing anything on superannuation this election when you know that this is the big problem coming at us, 'cause you drew attention to it yourself in the budget?

That's right, and so I feel I am doing something about it, which is I've changed the conversation on New Zealand Superannuation.

My view is it needs to be sustainable into the future, but it won't be unless we change the settings at some point.

I've never said that we should make those changes immediately.

I think they need to be made with good notice so that people have time to prepare.

There needs to be a fair transition, and they need to be stable over time.

So I've put out my card and said, "Come on, other political parties, let's be grown-ups.

Is he, is he like this behind the scenes with you, always asking for more money?

How much of the 7 and a half is real because you know you can do it versus you hope you can do it because beyond this year, p- perhaps next year, who the hell knows?

Ours is real because we've shown a track record of living within tight operating allowances.

In fact, our operating allowances have been smaller than that which we campaigned on, whereas Labor's track record is that every single time they blow out the limits they set for themselves in a campaign.

That headroom they're talking about, totally fictional.

They haven't allocated funding for health in the out years.

They haven't allocated funding for their public transport fare cap.

They haven't allocated funding for the National Land Transport Fund, and they haven't allocated funding for their gold-plated pay equity regime.

Do you defend at all in terms of what you've done when you could have probably been a bit harder?

Now, that's a constituency, isn't it?

There are some people always who say the system isn't working, tear it all down.

But in general, New Zealanders, I think, are pragmatic, sensible people, and they understand that when politicians promise you rainbows and unicorns, ultimately you end up paying for that in one of two ways.

Either you pay for it with higher taxes, which in Chloe's case, at least she's taken the mask off and is being upfront about that, Or you pay for it with higher inflation, higher interest rates, and a more fragile economy.

And that's what we see when politicians overpromise.

You end up feeling the pain.

Do you defend at all in terms of what you've done when you could have probably been a bit harder?

I think your point is well made, that we do have different forces pulling us to each side.

How much of the seven and a half is real because you know you can do it versus you hope you can do it? Because beyond this year, p- perhaps next year, who the hell knows?

Ours is real because we've shown a track record of living within tight operating allowances.

In fact, our operating allowances have been smaller than that which we campaigned on, whereas Labor's track record is that every single time they blow out the limits they set for themselves in a campaign.

That headroom you're talking about, totally fictional.

They haven't allocated funding for health in the out years, they haven't allocated funding for their public transport fare cap, they haven't allocated funding for the National Land Transport Fund, and they haven't allocated funding for their gold-plated pay equity regime.

So don't believe-

Do you defend at all in terms of what you've done when you could have probably been a bit harder?

I think your point is well made that we do have different forces pulling us to each side.

You could have borrowed less, but you chose tax cuts.

Because last time what we put forward was a program of savings so that every dollar of tax relief was paid by a reprioritization from elsewhere.

This time we're focusing our reprioritization on additional investments.

For example, reprioritizing some of the aid budget to ensure that we can purchase more medicines for New Zealanders with health conditions over these next three years.

Doing reprioritization in the welfare system so that we can fund longer paid parental leave for parents, so that we can ensure that students have to repay their loans at, over a slower period, and so every baby born in this country gets a KiwiSaver bonus at birth.

... politically unpalatable?

It's still, it's still what we believe, and it's still our principle.

What we are asking is for other political parties to grow up and be sensible about this instead of just putting their heads in the sand like ostriches and saying, "Nothing will ever change." That's not realistic.

Why aren't you doing anything on superannuation this election when you know that this is the big problem coming at us? 'Cause you drew attention to it yourself in the budget.

That's right, and so I feel I am doing something about it, which is I've changed the conversation on New Zealand Superannuation.

My view is it needs to be sustainable into the future, but it won't be unless we change the settings at some point.

I've never said that we should make those changes immediately.

I think they need to be made with good notice so that people have time to prepare, there needs to be a fair transition, and they need to be stable over time.

So I've put out my card and said, "Come on, other political parties, let's be grown-ups.

Let's not leave this to the last minute.

Is he, is he like this behind the scenes with you, always asking for more money?

Why aren't you doing anything on superannuation this election when you know that this is the big problem coming at us? 'Cause you drew attention to it yourself in the budget.

That's right, and so I feel I am doing something about it, which is I've changed the conversation on New Zealand superannuation.

My view is it needs to be sustainable into the future, but it won't be unless we change the settings at some point.

I've never said that we should make those changes immediately.

I think they need to be made with good notice so that people have time to prepare.

There needs to be a fair transition, and they need to be stable over time.

So I've put out my card and said, "Come on, other political parties, let's be grown-ups.

Is he, is he like this behind the scenes with you, always asking for more money?

Why aren't you doing anything on superannuation this election when you know that this is the big problem coming at us? 'Cause you drew attention to it yourself in the budget.

That's right, and so I feel I am doing something about it, which is I've changed the conversation on New Zealand superannuation.

My view is it needs to be sustainable into the future, but it won't be unless we change the settings at some point.

I've never said that we should make those changes immediately.

I think they need to be made with good notice so that people have time to prepare.

There needs to be a fair transition, and they need to be stable over time.

So I've put out my card and said, "Come on, other political parties.

Is he, is he like this behind the scenes with you, always asking for more money?

Um, Nicola Willis, if you are the next finance minister, what will distinguish your leadership?

Well, we'll make this a stronger economy where New Zealanders can get ahead by putting in place the basics of disciplined economic management.

We have a tre- track record that now means that New Zealand is growing faster than the US, the UK, Australia.

We're looking forward to 220,000 new jobs being created, incomes rising faster than prices so your life becomes more affordable, and reducing the debt mountain that was left to us after COVID.

We've done all of that while delivering personal income tax relief and making it easier for businesses to invest and grow.

We cannot risk as a country going back to the failed approach of more wasteful spending, more borrowing, and more taxes.

That would put a wrecking ball through the economic recovery New Zealanders have worked so hard to forge.

Yeah

Um, Nicola Willis, if you are the next finance minister, what will distinguish your leadership?

Well, we'll make this a stronger economy where New Zealanders can get ahead by putting in place the basics of disciplined economic management.

We have a tre- track record that now means that New Zealand is growing faster than the US, the UK, Australia.

We're looking forward to 220,000 new jobs being created, incomes rising faster than prices so your life becomes more affordable, and reducing the debt mountain that was left to us after COVID.

We've done all of that while delivering personal income tax relief and making it easier for businesses to invest and grow.

We cannot risk, as a country, going back to the failed approach of more wasteful spending, more borrowing, and more taxes.

That would put a wrecking ball through the economic recovery New Zealanders have worked so hard to forge.

Yeah

What are they meant to do for work?

Well, we need that pizza growing, and with growth is coming 220,000 new jobs over the next four years, and many of those jobs can be filled by our young people.

There will be more opportunity when we grow this place more.

That's why we need to back the investors.

We actually need to back the employers.

We need to back the people taking risks, the entrepreneurs who want to do something new, and not... punish them with more

where it starts? An

hour a day of reading, writing and maths.

in a ditch before you do that?

You know what? This country has built more electricity generation in the past three years than we did in the eight before that.

And why? Because New Zealand First and National got together and passed a fast-track act, and that is an achievement.

We got more renewable energy built in this country by getting the red and green tape out of the way.

Nicola Willis, wouldn't it be great to live in a country where we didn't need food banks to feed our children?

Well, I think you're taking one perspective.

Another perspective is to reflect on the extraordinary generosity of New Zealanders and the community institutions we have had for centuries, which do provide for vulnerable citizens in need, and to see the role of the Sikh community, the role of the church, the role of City Missions as a positive force for good.

Government has a crucial role.

Let's talk about housing.

On our watch, rents have now frozen for the past year.

They have not been increasing.

What do you say to young people, Nicola Willis, about the future you plan for them?

That's the whole point, access to the wholesalers, which are the people in the middle between the supplier and the retail, ensuring that our smaller independent operators have more competitive prices so they can offer more competitive prices to New Zealanders.

Yes.

We want pack and save competing harder against New World.

And we have commissioned a lot of analysis which shows a price war would break out if we split those banners.

And you, the shopper, on average would be $540 a year better off.

Now, of course, all of that needs to be checked through by the independent competition watchdog, the Commerce Commission.

But I'll tell you the biggest thing for food prices.

Nicola Willis, wouldn't it be great to live in a country where we didn't need food banks to feed our children?

What do you make of Labor's fiscal plan?

Well, it doesn't add up.

Uh, um, I'm sad about it, because they keep claiming that they've funded all of their promises, but they blatantly haven't.

They haven't put funding aside for their mega pay equity commitment.

They haven't put funding aside for their commitment to nurse graduates, for their future fund, for their cap on public transport fares.

And what that means is they're gonna be left, if we're to believe their plan, with no money, uh, for schools, for tertiary institutions, for disability services, for all of the things that require funding in every budget.

They've left no money in the cupboard.

Did you go a bit far calling Labor liars over the, um, fiscal plan?

What about this policy is so egregious?

There are multiple major commitments that Labor have made on the campaign trail for which they haven't allocated any specific funding in their fiscal plan.

Pay equity, they just haven't put funds aside for it.

Their policy to cap public transport fees, not only have they not put funds aside for it, they're actually cutting $3 billion from the Land Transport Fund.

Their promise on nurse graduates, no funding in the plan for that either.

So multiple promises where they just haven't put funding in the plan.

And actually, it's so lacking credibility, it's such a sham of a plan, that I think what's really happened here is Labor saw the reaction to their hidden bill, saw how concerned people were about their plan to tax and spend more, and decided, "You know what? Let's just try and pull the wool over Kiwi's eyes." It's not, it's not good enough.

... and they can't make decisions on transport funding until they see the GPS.

What do you make of Labor's fiscal plan?

Well, it doesn't add up.

Uh, I'm, I'm sad about it because they keep claiming that they've funded all of their promises, but they blatantly haven't.

They haven't put funding aside for their mega pay equity commitment.

They haven't put funding aside for their commitment to nurse graduates, for their future fund, for their cap on public transport fares.

And what that means is they're gonna be left, if we're to believe their plan, with no money, uh, for schools, for tertiary institutions, for disability services, for all of the things that require funding in every budget.

They've left no money in the cupboard.

Did you go a bit far calling Labor liars over the, um, fiscal plan?

What do you make a Labour's fiscal plan?

Well, it doesn't add up.

I'm sad about it because they keep claiming that they've funded all of their promises, but they blatantly haven't.

They haven't put funding aside for their mega pay equity commitment.

They haven't put funding aside for their commitment to nurse graduates, for their future fund, for their cap on public transport fares.

And what that means is they're going to be left, if we're to believe their plan, with no money for schools, for tertiary institutions, for disability services, for all of the things that require funding in every budget.

They have left no money in the cupboard.

Have you guys maybe overcooked this or got this a bit wrong?

That's

ridiculous.

The pre-election fiscal update has a long section on the land transport fund and it says explicitly with the planned revenue that we've planned, there's enough in there only.

to do basic road maintenance and basic resilience projects.

So that is rebuilding roads after cyclones and floods and the like.

So what Labour are effectively saying is we're going to cut $3 billion out of there, cut the basics of local road and construction, public transport subsidies, and you're not going to notice.

That doesn't make sense, Katie.

the promises are obviously there's that gap with pay equity funding uh the promises national have made around pay equity we also haven't seen your funds on it because you for the same reasons as labour are saying that you don't want it to affect negotiations down the track

It's so slow, Minister.

Well, we've tackled that problem pretty fast, actually.

So when we came to office, the Grocery Industry Act was in place, left to us by the last government.

We've been enforcing that.

Then we said in March last year, actually, we're not seeing that this new regime that Labour left us is delivering enough change.

We went out to the market.

We said, what would it take to get more competitive grocery stores opening in this country? The feedback came back and we immediately reacted to it by introducing fast-track consenting for new supermarkets, streamlining the overseas investment path for anyone internationally who wants to invest, introducing multi-proof building consents for supermarkets.

What's your single strongest argument that New Zealanders are materially better off than they were when you took office?

we know it's not been

overestimated again.

Look, forecasts are forecasts, right? They are never 100% accurate.

The thing that's really interesting in these numbers, Ryan, is that for the year that's just been, 25-26, Treasury have had to say, actually the economy did better than we thought.

The deficit is more than $3 billion less than we thought it would be.

And for this year, based on actual statistics, things happening in terms of the tax that we're receiving, they think that that deficit is going to be about $4 billion smaller.

So this is less about what they're projecting for the future, it's what's happening in the here and now.

you're in the same camp, aren't you? You're all singing from the same commie song sheet.

It's come at political cost, though, to the government, hasn't it?

Well, we have had to make tough choices and I'm really conscious of that.

And sometimes I'm in this job, the person who is kind of the doctor no, saying, look, sorry, you can't have everything you want.

You can't have all of the lovely things.

And that's because we have to be responsible.

The reason I've had to do all of that reprioritisation, reducing some of those back office costs and stopping programmes that weren't working, is so I could find the money to invest in the things Kiwis really want.

without having to borrow excessively.

What are we going to do about the GST we're not collecting? will get into the back office more yet you've got to cut New Zealand's size of government and you've got to cut government spending.

It's come at political cost, though, to the government, hasn't it?

Well, we have had to make tough choices and I'm really conscious of that.

And sometimes I'm in this job, the person who is kind of the doctor no, saying, look, sorry, you can't have everything you want.

You can't have all of the lovely things.

And that's because we have to be responsible.

The reason I've had to do all of that reprioritisation, reducing some of those back office costs and stopping programmes that weren't working, is so I could find the money to invest in the things Kiwis really want.

without having to borrow excessively.

What are we going to do about the GST we're not collecting? will get into the back office more yet you've got to cut New Zealand's size of government and you've got to cut government spending.

How urgent is action on superannuation?

Well, there's two different issues there.

First is the challenges in the here and now.

And what we are showing is that we can get these books back in balance and pay down the debt.

But we can't take that for granted because, as you say, there are risks in the world.

There are other challenges.

So it's really important in this election campaign that parties don't go and spend the surplus before it's even arrived because we could dig ourselves into a deeper hole.

Is there scope for that? And if so,