What was it that convinced you there was a much bigger story here?

Well, my first investigation into these issues actually started back in 2006, so it was some 20 years ago.

Many of the same themes were apparent back then, whispers of serious organised crime figures, bikies, contractors, union corruption.

And of course, one thing that I think you missed in your introduction was the knowledge or involvement of people within the Australian Labor Party, returned to the topic actually quite significantly in 2014, which prompted the Dyson Hayden Royal Commission, which overall was a bit of a fizzer, it's fair to say.

But then in around late 2023, not just one tip, but a number of key tips that all pointed in the same direction, which was Yes, we know that there's been a presence of the underworld on building sites, seemingly with the connivance or the support of the CFMEU, but it seemed to be out of control.

It seemed to be going in a way that was far bigger than before, which suggested that there was perhaps something systemic happening around this problem.

And this related to one very interesting aspect of our story, a gangland figure who'd been in jail for 10 odd years for his involvement in one of the gangland hits, executions in Melbourne.

Nick, what would you like to add?

How did it work?

Uh, very simple.

You want a job on the big build earning up to $400,000 a year as a traffic management person, so, you know, stop/go sign and, uh, making sure the public's safe as they pass various sites.

But you don't wanna get the qualifications that you need to get such a job.

Uh, you go to a pub or a car park, you pay cash, and you get a fake certificate, and you use that to get your job.

The chap charged allegedly over 200 times did this very a- act, uh, in one way or another, not always in, in the pub or the car park.

But he's just one of a number of people, part of a large racket.

I'm gonna go into the big build and make sure that stops."

How did it work?

Uh, very simple.

You want a job on the Big Build earning up to four hundred thousand dollars a year as a traffic management person, so a stop-go sign and, uh, making sure the public's safe as they pass various sites.

But you don't wanna get the qualifications that you need to get such a job.

Uh, you go to a pub or a car park, you pay cash, and you get a fake certificate, and you use that to get your job.

The chap charged, uh, allegedly over two hundred times did this very, uh, act, uh, in one way or another, not always in, in the pub or the car park.

But he's just one of a number of people, part of a large racket.

I'm gonna go into the Big Build and make sure that stops."

How did it work?

Uh, very simple.

You want a job on the Big Build, earning up to four hundred thousand dollars a year as a traffic management person, so stop-go sign and, uh, making sure the public's safe as they pass various sites.

But you don't want to get the qualifications that you need to get such a job.

Uh, you go to a pub or a car park, you pay cash, and you get a fake certificate, and you use that to get your job.

The chap charged, uh, allegedly over two hundred times did this very, uh, act in one way or another, not always in, in the pub or the car park.

But he's just one of a number of people, part of a large racket.

So Nick, a small, a small thought, but is part of the corruption that, okay, we don't need, um, one person doing the stop-go sign earning four hundred grand, we need to have two people in the same spot doing the same job?

Without going after Jacinta Allan and Daniel Andrews, do you feel that this Royal Commission could be even seen as complete?

[lips smack] No, of, of course not.

I mean, the, the buck stops at, at the top.

It's, it's the, the two premiers that are responsible for this massive infrastructure scheme that we know as a fact has been infiltrated by, by crooks care of sometimes their improper relationship with the CFMEU.

Uh, I mean, the, the breadcrumbs are all there.

Uh, there's been two and a half years of investigative reporting, uh, that has led to lots of questions being raised.

So we're-- we've established that bikie gangs put their people on as CFMEU health and safety reps on major Big Build sites.

Mm.

And it seems to me, Nick, there is a significant difference between gross incompetence, not that, uh, it should be allowed at any time, but a, a massive difference between gross incompetence as opposed to a clandestine deal between people like Jacinta Allan and Daniel Andrews and union leaders.

Well, there is a, a big difference.

Intent does matter.

Why, why our politicians have done-- why, why Allan did certain things, that absolutely does matter.

In some respects, though, the end result is the same, which is the abuse of taxpayer money by figures involved in the organized crime world.

But getting to what was the intent, wh-why were these deals struck? Wh-why was this allowed to go on for, for such a long time? Uh, I mean, the other thing that's, that's clear is that the Royal Commission will attempt to look at the major companies making a fortune from these huge projects, because ultimately it was their supply chains that were corrupted with bikies, gangland figures.

Uh, we've had some, some notorious gangland figures in Victoria for two decades now, uh, operate with absolute freedom in the construction industry.

Is it going to ultimately bring about change on work sites?

What's the yarn?

Yeah, the owner of M Group, one of...

The key big build subcontractors providing labour hire across Victorian government jobs and other big major projects.

Its owner, Tony Parageli, explains and goes on the record to say, well, I paid Mick Gatto over a million dollars over 10 years just for the right to work in Victoria.

How did this work? Well, he was getting blocked by the CFMEU from sites.

And the only way to stop that, according to his account, was to pay Gatto over a million dollars So this is that sort of pay to play system.

And he also, I think, critically expresses regret.

Why is there no one in the state government actively, on a daily basis, making sure this stops? This is why we

What's the yarn?

Yeah, the owner of M Group, one of...

The key big build subcontractors providing labour hire across Victorian government jobs and other big major projects.

Its owner, Tony Parageli, explains and goes on the record to say, well, I paid Nick Gatto over a million dollars over 10 years just for the right to work in Victoria.

How did this work? Well, he was getting blocked by the CFMEU from sites.

And the only way to stop that, according to his account, was to pay Gatto over a million dollars So this is that sort of pay to play system.

And he also, I think, critically expresses regret.

Why is there no one in the state government actively, on a daily basis, making sure this

I suppose you would start by saying this is not unexpected.

Well, to the contrary, it's totally expected because we reported just a few days ago that the former boss of the Mongols, outlaw, bikey gang, Tyrone Little Ty Bell, was under active police investigation by Task Force Hawke for allegedly, and this has not been proven, engaging in secret commissions offences with serving CFME officials.

What does that mean? Well, he was accused of effectively paying bribes or offering bribes or inducements to people still running the union in Victoria.

That's strongly denied by... little tie but this morning the police raided and arrested five CFMEU members or senior organisers including the most senior boots on the ground person in the in the union so a very significant day of police action but if the union denies wrongdoing and no charges as of yet there may never be any charges.

But so do you expect this to be information that then they can use in the Royal Commission? And how will that play out in relation to Task Force Hawke?

It absolutely will feature in the Royal Commission.

What we'll learn in that Royal Commission, what we know as a fact, is that the former bikey boss involved in this definitely has ongoing connections with people in the CF and EU.

Now, those connections are defended as old relationships, old friendships, but what Task Force Hawke will have inevitably found is the information around, well, what is little Ty, the ex-bikey, doing here? Hanging with certain CFME officials, is it appropriate? Are they aiding his union-fixing business? Are they helping an ex-bikey make money by allowing him to know about union pressure placed on builders? These are the allegations.

I suppose you would start by saying this is not unexpected.

Well, to the contrary, it's totally expected because we reported just a few days ago that the former boss of the Mongols, outlaw bikey gang, Tyrone Little Ty Bell, was under active police investigation by Task Force Hawke for allegedly, and this has not been proven, engaging in secret commissions offences with serving CFME officials.

What does that mean? Well, he was accused of effectively paying bribes or offering bribes or inducements to people still running the union in Victoria.

That's strongly denied by... little tie but this morning the police raided and arrested five CFMEU members or senior organisers including the most senior boots on the ground person in the union so a very significant day of police action but if the union denies wrongdoing and no charges as of yet there may never be any charges.

But so do you expect this to be information that then they can use in the Royal Commission? And how will that play out in relation to Task Force Hawke?

It absolutely will feature in the Royal Commission.

What we'll learn in that Royal Commission, what we know as a fact, is that the former bikey boss involved in this definitely has ongoing connections with people in the CF and the U.

Now, those connections are defended as old relationships, old friendships.

Could you explain that to us, Nick, in simple terms?

Well, the best way to explain it is to call it the Gatto business model, which is that someone tied to the underworld, Big Gatto, or in this case, Tyrone Little, Ty Bell, former head of the Mongols' bikey gang, they've got a union-fixing business.

You've got a union problem, I'll sort it out, you've got to pay me.

That business becomes much more effective if they're actually working with the union.

So in this case...

The allegation, unproven, is Tyrone gets a heads-up from his mates in the union about industrial activity.

Let's shut down a business.

The question will be, does Nick McKenzie say that the frame of the Royal Commission is going to get a tick from Nick on everything? What are you keeping an eye on? What is Ben Carroll going to be tempted to leave out of the Royal Commission that you say under no circumstances should be left out?

Can you explain that to us, Nick, in simple terms?

Well, the best way to explain it is to call it the Gatto business model, which is that someone tied to the underworld, or in this case, Tyrone Little Tybelf, former head of the Mongols' bikey gang.

They've got a union-fixing business.

You've got a union problem.

I'll sort it out.

You've got to pay me.

That business becomes much more effective if they're actually working with the union.

The question will be, does Nick McKenzie say that the frame of the Royal Commission is going to get a tick from Nick on everything? What are you keeping an eye on? What is Ben Carroll going to be tempted to leave out of the Royal Commission that you say under no circumstances should be left out?

What can you tell us about that?

Yeah, it's a confusing state of affairs.

I mean, the, the fact that we have a Queensland Commission of Inquiry into the CFMEU examining what went on with the CFMEU in Victoria is already a b- a bit head-spinning, but ultimately that's politics at play.

The Queensland government is a conservative government, so it's called a Royal Commission-style inquiry up north to look at the CFMEU.

The Victorian government's Labor, it's refusing such an inquiry.

So what happened is the, the Victorian CFMEU administration, this is the people put in charge of the CFMEU to clean it up, put in charge by the Albanese government, uh, in the middle of 2024, led by a, a barrister called Mark Irving KC.

They hired Geoff Watson, uh, SC, a corruption expert, to go investigating, to, to do his landmark report into just how corrupt the CFMEU was and the involvement of bikies and others, uh, in this rot.

I guess, what's your message to them when they listen to these developments or the way that we speak about them, and they think we are almost undoing all the good work that the CFMEU does?

What are the main issues you think need to be covered and questions that need to be answered by a Royal Commission?

Well, to boil it right down, basically what happened was the Labor government and the Premier, Jacinta Allan, bestowed just immense power on a very lawless entity in the form of the Victorian branch of the CFMEU, the construction union, at the very time it was in bed with the gangland, with bikie clubs, with figures like Mick Gatto.

And that power enabled the CFMEU and its gangland mates to, to become gatekeepers on the Big Build, to take over parts of mega projects, to put their mates on projects.

We had bikie gang members running amok as union officials.

We had subcontracting firms owned by gangland figures getting the sweet deals on these mega projects.

We had labor hire companies in bed with the CFMEU, sometimes in bed with gangland figures, winning contracts turning over literally billions of dollars.

And this was only possible because the Labor government gave the CFMEU the big green light to do what it pleased on these taxpayer-funded projects.

Would you like to see Jacinta Allan testify, and what questions would you like to see her answer?

Um, Nick, as always, thank you for coming on, and really, how many smoking guns do you need to uncover, I guess is my first question? [laughs]

Well, there's been plenty of damning evidence, but this is the s-smoking gun.

This is a report we've uncovered written by four of Victoria's most senior transport and infrastructure officials, June 2023.

That date's important.

It's one year- Built and over by corrupt CFMEU officials, bikie gangland figures.

A year before that, or, or even over a year, just over a year, these four top public servants wrote to the then minister, transport minister, and said, "The union are taking over the Big Build.

There's a, a huge amount of lawlessness.

Yeah.

And really, how many smoking guns do you need to uncover, I guess, is my first question.

Well, there's been plenty of damning evidence, but this is the smoking gun.

This is a report we've uncovered, written by four of Victoria's most senior transport and infrastructure officials today.

june 2023 that that's important it's one over by corrupt cfmu officials barky gangland figures a year before that or even over a year just over a year these four top public servants wrote to the then minister transport minister and said the union is taking over the big build there's a huge amount of lawlessness There's allegations of barky infiltration.

There's subcontractors and people being put on sites that shouldn't be there.

WorkSafe Victoria, the regulator is not operating as it should.

The police need to be called in and the cost of this could be huge.

So did you go to her office today or was it yesterday? Like, I just wonder how much of this plays into what's occurred today.

What is the Gatto tax?

Well, what we've uncovered through a leak inside the Gatto Empire or Gatto crew is that you might remember we previously referenced Gatto working for builders on the big build.

So by the taxpayer dollars, this time this leak reveals that Gatto's working for a hell of a lot of builders in the high-rise housing apartment market, effectively adding what we call, what people in the industry, what we call in the article, a Gatto tax.

So to give you an example, plastering.

He's been representing more than six major plastering companies in Melbourne.

They all pay him a fortune.

That's added into the cost of high-rise housing.

who said to me over lunch three weeks ago that it's important in November that Labor be voted out of office because corruption is so now widespread and endemic in Victoria.

If she has to pretend to answer that question, Nick, what is her answer?

Well, her answer is that they lead to a minimal amount of criminal charges and not the cultural change that is needed.

And the problem there is the very last Royal Commissioner of Victoria, Mr Finkelstein, who did the Commission of Inquiry into Crown Casino and its dodgy dealings, this was called by Daniel Andrews, he said that's rubbish.

Royal Commissions do... lead to tremendous cultural change if done properly.

They can absolutely help expose organised crime.

The point of a Royal Commission isn't to just have criminal charges or not criminal charges at all.

It's to get those crooks that are making money from the big bill.

Do you think she will call one? And if so, what would the timing be?

So can you tell us a bit more about Mick Gatto's involvement here? What's he actually done, and what, if anything, have taxpayers got for the money that's been spent that's flowed to him?

Well, they've got a more empowered gangland and a wealthier Mick Gatto and a wealthier set of bikie clubs.

That's what the public's got.

What has he actually done? The easiest way to explain it is in the labor hire area, 'cause it's the worst case study.

It's the worst area of wrongdoing.

I call them the Dirty Dozen.

There's a 12 or so labor hire companies, and only 12, despite there being over 100 with a license to operate on the Big Build, only 12 got the imprimatur or the stamp of approval from the CFMEU in the form of an EBA and union backing to operate on that Big Build.

And this is really the point at which the public loses out, isn't it?

Do you get the feeling that Jacinta actually knows that, Nick, that people are worried about what might happen to their property? Do you think she actually knows and feels that and kind of dances on it? It certainly didn't look like it yesterday.

I mean, she seemed to be baffled by the idea that police were struggling to get witnesses to testify against some of the most notorious gangland bosses in this state.

And I think most Victorians would find that inexplicable.

Someone very senior in the Labor Party said to me yesterday yesterday you know what, the cover-up's always worse than the crime.

It's starting to look like the Premier of this state is seeking to cover up what is obvious to everybody in this state.

And I think that's politically far more damaging in some respects than the actual fact of corruption on the big bill.

But, of course, if you testify against somebody who has been in the gangland for 30-odd years and that testimony can affect their income stream, there's a chance, or at least... obviously the fear of reprisal.

Would we be best to wait until this Victorian Labor government is not controlling and get the Liberal Party to set terms on a Royal Commission?

Do you get the feeling that Jacinta actually knows that, Nick, that people are worried about what might happen to their property? Do you think she actually knows and feels that and kind of dances on it? It certainly didn't look like it

yesterday.

I mean, she seemed to be baffled by the idea that police were struggling to get witnesses to testify against some of the most notorious gangland bosses in this state.

And I think most Victorians would find that inexplicable.

Someone very senior in the Labor Party said to me yesterday yesterday you know what, the cover-up's always worse than the crime.

It's starting to look like the Premier of this state is seeking to cover up what is obvious to everybody in this state.

And I think that's politically far more damaging in some respects than the actual fact of corruption on the big build.

Would we be best to wait until this Victorian Labor government is not controlling and get the Liberal Party to set terms on a Royal Commission?

But were you saying last night that, in fact, the CFMEU is still deeply involved in corrupt behaviour?

Oh, there's no doubt there's elements of the Victorian branch of the CFMEU that are still deeply involved in corrupt behaviour.

There are people who've been booted out of the CFMEU in Victoria who are pulling the strings, who are deeply corrupt.

Now, there are lots of good unionists in the union.

There's some fresh blood and some good existing operators, but there is still significant corruption occurring.

But the heart of what we reported last night and over the weekend is that the Labor government empowered the CFMEU and gave it the keys to the kingdom, if you will, when it allowed effectively to take over the big build of... that's when Jacinta Allen was the minister for the big build.

So we had a minister and the government empowering a corrupt union and little surprise, what's the product? Well, you've had the biggest rorts across the big build, which are still going on today, thanks to this cartel style arrangement between Labor, the CFMEU and the gangland.

Do you think Jacinta Allen, I'm just asking your opinion here, might eventually buckle and announce, like, give IBAC the powers it needs or tell the Auditor-General to do an investigation or, God forbid, launch a Royal Commission? Do you think that's possible?

But were you saying last night that, in fact, the CFMEU is still deeply involved in corrupt behaviour?

Oh, there's no doubt there's elements of the Victorian branch of the CFMEU that are still deeply involved in corrupt behaviour.

There are people who have been booted out of the CFME in Victoria who are pulling the strings, who are deeply corrupt.

Now, there are lots of good unionists in the union.

There's some fresh blood and some good existing operators, but there is still significant corruption occurring.

But the heart of what we reported last night and over the weekend is that the Labor government empowered the CFMEU and gave it the keys to the kingdom, if you will, when it allowed effectively to take over the big build.

That's when Jacinta Allen was the minister for the big build.

Do you think Jacinta Allen, I'm just asking your opinion here, might eventually buckle and announce, like, give IBAC the powers it needs or tell the Audits General to do an investigation or, God forbid, launch a Royal Commission? Do you think that's possible?

And who do you wanna play ball for?

The Yankees.

It's very obvious.

[laughs]

But Nick's youth baseball experience is very different from his dad's.

I would say I probably play seven days a week and seven hours a day.

Is that right?

Well, it's still on the big build as we speak.

It's on the North East Link.

It's been given to the end of next week to pack up its bags and leave.

It's been on the big build for a number of years and it's turned over tens of millions of dollars every year.

And the simple fact is this, women in construction, which is actually headed by two men with criminal convictions, should never ever have been on the big build.

It should not have been on the big build for a month or two months, let alone four or five years.

How would you rebut that?