I don't know from a historical p- timeline, but that's very much part of what was happening with the evolution of things like Twitter and Facebook, where people started to share in a different way their lives.

Well, Show Studio started before Facebook, before Twitter, before any of those.

So we started in 1998 talking about it, and we took a year and a year of Peter Saville to get it going [laughs].

And we, so we launched in November 2000, which was a year and a half after we first started it.

So things were starting to bubble under at that point.

I remember YouTube coming online, Twitter, TikTok, Instagram, all these things came after.

It was in the air.

You seem to be somebody who continues to reinvent, continues to question That where do you see your role in the evolution of the punk movement and where we are now?

Yeah.

Um, sadly, and I don't agree with the fact you can have a lo- very long career, but it's, fashion is so youth-focused.

So it would be ha- focused largely on people in their late teens, early 20s, and that traditionally was kind of where most of the fashion models were situated.

I don't really think it's fair that the possibility to extend a model's career throughout their lifetime in some sort of virtual sense is available, why they shouldn't have access to that.

But they have to be in control of it.

The model has to control his or her own image, i.e. have the rights to it.

At the moment, they don't, so anybody, you or anybody else, could go and make a, a virtual model of any of the fashion models that we know, and you could use that, and they have no control over that whatsoever.

I want, I wanna know the books that you would recommend that anybody who's interested in building a career in fashion, technology, or otherwise, books that people should read.

I

think that's one of the splits that actually works really well, actually, because Antoine is amazing at the sales and marketing and the going out and telling people uh customers what our system can do and and and and dealing with commercial problems which adds a huge amount of value but then that really needs to if you if you're going to keep a customer for long term i always use a phrase you've got to have the meat you've got to so i sell the sizzle he delivers the actual meat yeah yeah If you go to a barbecue and someone sells you, I'm going, oh, we're going to have the best steak or the best burgers.

And when you get there, you get an empty bun.

You're going to be pretty disappointed.

And the same thing is true when you're selling and then delivering.

If you don't deliver, especially when you make the promise of a no minimum term contract, We would lose customers in an instance, but we've held on to customers for 10, 15 years since day one of running Babel Voice.

And they stay because we've got to stay on the edge of that developing features and actually making sure that we actually stay ahead of the game so that divide between the the two of us i think is one of the the critical critical things that we've actually we've got right um in our space i think there are um actually going back to your previous question what was what were the um i've got another answer to the question about what was one of the moments where you thought we got something right So Antoine's right, it's very exciting when, you know, we've had a long history of selling to normal businesses.

What do you do to keep that moving and where do you spend money? And I guess when you're going into the GP thing, Did you think, oh, hang on, we're going to walk into a whole load of legislation here or was it something that was

Wow.

At a place called Hinchinbrook.

And it was a school uniform.

And there's nothing worse for a child who is just finding their own sexuality and just discovering what it is to be sexual to be told you have to wear a school uniform.

And it wasn't just...

So some school uniforms, you can go, oh, well, there's something there.

There's some...

Yeah.