What do you say to people who say that might be a bit strong way of characterizing Jefferson?

I'm happy to jump in and try and answer that, Matt.

I mean, I think one thing about Jefferson in his era, which it's really important to remember, is that people thought about opposition to slavery in a very, very different way in the 1780s, 1790s, and 1800s, even than they did in the 1830s and 1840s, and definitely very differently to the way we think today.

So one of the projects of the book, I think, is to try to undo our almost intuitive connection between between the idea of opposing slavery and the notion of accepting or even promoting racial equality.

So this, again, is something that's very much bound up in our understanding of the kind of freedom struggle.

You oppose slavery.

You promote the rights of people who are enslaved or the people who were born free who are black.

Is that part of what you're doing here?

What do you say to people who say that might be a bit strong way of characterizing Jefferson?

I'm happy to jump in and try and answer that, Matt.

I mean, I think one thing about Jefferson in his era, which it's really important to remember, is that people thought about opposition to slavery in a very, very different way in the 1780s, 1790s, and 1800s, even than they did in the 1830s and 1840s, and definitely very differently to the way we think today.

So one of the projects of the book, I think, is to try to undo our almost intuitive connection between the idea of opposing slavery and the notion of accepting or even promoting racial equality.

So this, again, is something that's very much bound up in our understanding of the kind of freedom struggle.

You oppose slavery, you promote the rights of people who are enslaved or the people who were born free who are black.

You end up in a situation where there are equal rights for all.

Is that part of what you're doing here?

What do you say to people who say that might be a bit strong way of characterizing Jefferson?

I'm happy to jump in and try and answer that, Matt.

I mean, I think one thing about Jefferson in his era, which it's really important to remember, is that people thought about opposition to slavery in a very, very different way in the 1780s, 1790s, and 1800s, even than they did in the 1830s and 1840s, and definitely very differently to the way we think today.

So one of the projects of the book, I think, is to try to undo our almost intuitive connection between between the idea of opposing slavery and the notion of accepting or even promoting racial equality.

So this, again, is something that's very much bound up in our understanding of the kind of freedom struggle.

You oppose slavery, you promote the rights of people who are enslaved or the people who were born free who are black, you end up in a situation where there are equal rights for all.

That is a pathway for anti-slavery activism taken by very, very few people, both before the Civil War.

Is that part of what you're doing here?

What is the wolf?

Can I take a very, very quick stab at this, but maybe first by giving you a bit of context.

So if you want to end slavery in the founding period, a whole bunch of people, including a lot of enslavers, for reasons we can get into, which are not all moral or kind of Christian or enlightened, a whole bunch of people think that slavery might not be suited to the new United States.

It might even be dangerous.

And that's where the wolf comes in.

But the ways of getting rid of it, if you decide it should be gotten rid of...

There are some people, a very, very small number, that think the way to get rid of it is simply to pass laws freeing black people.

But for people who have not...

What is Jefferson's wolf?

Uh, well, this is kind of a crazy image which, uh, Jefferson comes up with in 1820.

Uh, and he's basically writing to a congressman, uh, from Maine, from the state of Maine, in the midst of this big crisis which is brewing over whether or not the, uh, federal government should allow slavery to expand into the territory of Missouri.

And again, those of your listeners that know a little bit about 19th century American history will probably know that one of the reasons we get a civil war in 1861 is not just because slavery still exists, but because the North and the South have been fighting over whether new states coming into the United States as it expands westwards should be slave or free.

So in 1820, there's a big debate surrounding one of those western states of Missouri, and, uh, this congressman writes to Jefferson, who is then nearly 80 years old, in retirement at his big house, Monticello in Virginia.

And the congressman says, "Please help us out.

Give us some advice.

Yes.

What is Jefferson's wolf?

Uh, well, this is kind of a crazy image which, uh, Jefferson comes up with in 1820, uh, and he's basically writing to a congressman, uh, from Maine, from the state of Maine, in the midst of this big crisis which is brewing over whether or not the, uh, federal government should allow slavery to expand into the territory of Missouri.

And again, those of your listeners that know a little bit about 19th century American history will probably know that one of the reasons we get a civil war in 1861 is not just because slavery still exists, but because the North and the South have been fighting over whether new states coming into the United States as it expands westwards should be slave or free.

So in 1820, there's a big debate surrounding one of those western states of Missouri, and, uh, this congressman writes to Jefferson, who is then nearly 80 years old, in retirement at his big house, Monticello in Virginia, and the congressman says, "Please help us out.

Give us some advice.

What should we do with this debate? Should we let slavery go further to the west or not?" And Jefferson writes back and he says, "Slavery is this incredibly tragic dilemma for Americans." And he says, "Slavery, it's like we have the wolf by the ear." Not the ears, "We have the wolf by the ear.

We can neither hold him safely nor let him go." And actually, that's a sort of, for us, really crucial phrase to think about, not only because it demonstrates that Jefferson is also thinking about security, so one of his other reasons for being anxious about keeping people in slavery is his fear they will rebel, which is a big, big, big driver for him, but also that weird second part.

Do you nevertheless in some way admire this man?