Yes.

I think a lot of guys feel no matter how many runs they score, how many wickets they take, they're just not gonna get a look in.

Um, yeah, I think that's, that's where the first thing comes down.

It starts from the grassroots up, where if you have the respect from England Cricket and the players and stuff around, um, you know, then I think the rest follows and makes a guy like Joe Root's job a hell of a lot easier.

I don't think then you have to try and kill fires and flames or, you know, try and explain, um, every, I guess situation and scenario that you do, um, they have to try and explain it.

So yeah, I, I think, you know, like I said, Flynn is one of those guys, as soon as he walks in a room, he's well-respected and everyone-

Mm.

They, they didn't really play any good cricket, and then sort of had some success.

Yes.

I think a lot of guys feel no matter how many runs they score, how many wickets they take, they're just not gonna get a look in.

Um, yeah, I think that's, that's where the first thing comes down.

It, it starts from the grassroots up where if you have the respect from England Cricket and the players and stuff around, um, you know, then I think the rest follows and makes a guy like Joe Root's job a hell of a lot easier.

I don't think then you have to try and kill fires and flames or, you know, try and explain, um, every I guess situation and scenario that you do, um, have to try and explain it.

So yeah, I, I think, you know, like I said, Flemm is one of those guys, as soon as he walks in a room he's well respected and everyone-

Mm.

They, they didn't really play any good cricket and then sort of had some success.

So what's gonna be the key for this bowling unit to clean up, um, these remaining wickets and, and make sure we're in that, um, dominant position going into the second innings do you think? What's the plan's gotta be?

I, I think it's ...

Well, they're doing it pretty well.

I think they're complementing each other well.

They, there's a pretty nice all-round attack, and they're doing it a little bit different to, you know, the ways we have done it in the past.

I mean, you've got bowlers who are very skillful and bring something different each of them.

Um, but when the ball is moving around they're very dangerous, and when they're not you've gotta A almost seven foot tall quick and willow rock who's come again [laughs] and bowls frighteningly quick, and there's so much to like about him.

Can you sort of kind of maybe- Uh, look into the crystal ball a little bit and say if we can close out this match and, and then win an away series in England, what it could do for this bowling unit confidence-wise and, and belief-wise and, uh, the flow on effects potentially of that as we look to Australia at the end of the year.

So what's gonna be the key for this bowling unit to clean up, um, these remaining wickets and, and make sure we're in that, um, dominant position going into the second innings, do you think? What's the plan's gotta be?

I think it's...

They're, they're doing it pretty well.

I think they compliment each other well.

They're, there's a pretty nice all-round attack, and they're doing it a little bit different to, you know, the ways we have done it in the past.

I mean, you've got bowlers who are very skillful and bring something different, each of them.

Um, but when the ball is moving around, they're very dangerous, and when they're not, you've got a, a almost seven foot tall quick in Willow Rock who's come again and bowls frighteningly quick.

Can you sort of, kind of maybe, uh, look into the crystal ball a little bit and say if we can close out this match and, and then win an away series in England, what it could do for this bowling unit confidence-wise and, and belief-wise and, uh, the flow on effects potentially of that as we look to Australia at the end of the year?

When he took over as captain, what was he like as a leader from a bowler's perspective?

Well, he's got an incredible mind and an incredible brain around the game and reading the game and being ahead, being street smart.

And that's something that New Zealand has always been really good at doing is being street smart ahead of other countries, I guess, and being a little bit trying to find, you know, sort of good ways of playing, you know, really good positive brands of cricket.

But for him to be able to read the play and being ahead of it and sort of know what's what's needed at a period of time to do it and also just be calm around it, make you feel that you're really confident and positive in your role and what you needed to do and plan your plan.

But every time, sometimes when we wanted to sort of push the ante or try and do something, he was the first one just to be patient and sort of be boring at it, knowing that that was required and what's needed.

And then what it was to make a play and do something and, sort of you know put a bit of a funky feel or something in place to to create a you know bit of something to break a partnership the way he thought about things the way he thought about you know getting players out or putting little plans into place and and also you know two bowlers at the other end complementing each other to be able to to work together and finding that common goal um he was the main driver i mean obviously started with Brendan McCullum's start, but even with Brendan McCullum's leadership, Kane was an ear there at the time as well.

He was a voice as a young player.

How driven and meticulous was he about that sort of thing, his prep, his training behind the scenes?

What made him a special teammate beyond the runs and the records?

Mate, it never really crossed my mind or crossed anyone's mind that he was trying to score runs for himself or that he worried about the runs and the outcomes.

To see someone put in that much effort and craft to their game and work so you know meticulous about what he did and and the effort they went in mate is second to none like it's just no one else around the world trained the way he trained um to put in all that effort and all of that was just to to play a part in the team and to do it for the team you know and everything around it was to build i guess a culture and he was one of the main leaders and drivers around building a team culture where people weren't doing that for their own benefit or for their own I guess, accolades, but for the greater good of the team and the mates around them, but also to play and represent your country of pride and to create a team, I guess, an outfit where people can look at and go, I want to play for them, I want to represent New Zealand, I want to, you know, wear that black cap of pride as much as they do.

To leave the black cap in a better place is something that I think he can look back, you know, fondly and know that he's played probably arguably the biggest part ever in his own cricket and creating, I guess, a legacy, but also environment that others can come in and flourish.

And that's what we've seen throughout the black caps is young players and players coming in, being able to find their feet straight away, being able to be themselves, be able to perform straight away when they've put that black cap on their head.

It's a huge testament to what he has created and what he's done.

And that's the main thing, mate.

How driven and meticulous was he about that sort of thing, his prep, his training behind the scenes?

And I would love to know what your thoughts are on the quality of cricket, which is essentially what we're paying to watch.

Yeah, no, that's the thing, Scotty, and I mean, like you mentioned, we're a small country, and I think all that sort of stuff costs money, and that's where I guess it begs to try and push towards that NZ20 and use that funds and money from elsewhere and privatise it.

To be able to give that product, you just mentioned, people can see, because the talent's there.

It's no different.

Like I said, we watched some amazing data for Cartwright Clark, Brie Tampton, who showed some level skill.

There's some young bowlers coming in and coming through.

Sam Cassidy in his first, I guess, stint in Super Smash Cricket showed some unbelievable skill and talent and a really exciting prospect.

If you had one change or one dream, what would it be to save this format? And are you concerned, if it's taken away, that the pathways would be disrupted in this country?

And I would love to know what your thoughts are on the quality of cricket, which is essentially what we're paying to watch.

Yeah, no, that's the thing, Scotty, and I mean, like you mentioned, we're a small country now.

I think all that sort of stuff costs money, and that's where I guess it begs to try and push towards that NZ20 and use that funds and money from elsewhere and privatise it.

To be able to give that product, you just mentioned, people can see, because the talent's there.

It's no different.

Like I said, we watched some amazing data for Cartwright Clark, Brie Tampton, who showed some level skill.

There's some young bowlers coming in and coming through.

If you had one change or one dream, what would it be to save this format? And are you concerned, if it's taken away, that the pathways would be disrupted in this country?

What have I done?

Mate, I can't explain how much fun I had.

It's the most fun.

I've had in any sort of event or playing cricket in a long, long time.

It was an incredible amount of fun.

Talking to Ken Reid and the guys afterwards, the whole build-up and stuff, it's very hard to explain to people who don't understand the feeling.

Before you play an international match or play test cricket, you get this butterfly, nervous anxiety, energy sort of feeling in your gut.

You're a fan club in the spa pool for you.

What have I done?

Mate, I can't explain how much fun I had.

It's the most fun...

I've had in any sort of event or playing cricket in a long, long time.

It was an incredible amount of fun.

Talking to Ken Reid and the guys afterwards, the whole build-up and stuff, it's very hard to explain to people who don't understand the feeling.

Before you play an international match or play test cricket, you get this butterfly, nervous anxiety, energy sort of feeling in your gut.

You're a fan club in the spa pool for you.

Yeah,

that's what they call it out of.

And it's real premature and real arrogant to have done that so early and saying that's the best England team, especially with two of the ever best bowlers being out of it.

It was a brave call to start.

But, yeah, I mean, they've got absolutely thump.

And it just showed, again, how strong Australia is in their own conditions.

So...

Mitchell Stark... was superb superb to me player of the series ahead of head because what Stark would do is he would come out and almost consistently at the start of his spell knock somebody off or change the momentum of the England innings right from the get-go and that's where these tests were won so often for me what Mitch Stark was doing but after that it looked like it came pretty easy to him because he wasn't getting a lot of resistance or a lot of smart options taken by those he was bowling to.

But drop catchers, as a bowler, drop catchers must be one of the most... gut-wrenching feeling when you've done the work you've laid the table you've set the trap and then these there's there's drop catches which is a half a chance and then there's drop catches

i think as a bowler you know when it's a tough chance or you know half a chance and the guy any sort of chance the guy gives a full effort and dives and it gets a handle really tries puts it down you sort of go hey yeah fair enough you know good effort i appreciate it sort of move on but when you do the hard work you need the breakthrough especially a guy who's been absolutely hurting you all series you go to the short ball plan and will jack's out on the boundary deep square leg and you bowl a short ball in top edge and it's an absolute dolly of a catch and you put it down it's almost like it's weird like there's a lot of pink shirts in the crowd to his credit if i could sort of come up it's pink day the whole stadium is pink It can be hard to pick a ball up, but it's almost like he last-minute just turned his face on it, like he just didn't see it.

But then you drop a catch that you get paid for to be able to swallow every day.

That is where you feel as a bowler, damn, man, where is the world in mother cricket against me, and what for? Because you do all the hard work, and that's sort of the gifted one that you want, and it just goes down.

And again, a guy who's made them hurt all series long, Traverse Head, Wicked, you sort of know...

Can just quickly change things around.

But, man, this has been a frustrating one for England.

A

What's it like putting yourself in that environment where you are now representing a team that previously you had zero connection to, a nation that you had no connection to?

Yeah, great question.

I feel the whole thing of immigration too.

I mean, making a move, I think the biggest thing for me was a sacrifice.

You know, packing up your whole life, leaving your family behind in a suitcase.

You want to chase this dream.

As soon as I left the shores to come over here, I wanted to play for New Zealand, represent New Zealand.

But when did you feel like a New Zealander? When did you go, right, I feel like this is my country, I'm representing this country as part of it rather than a guy here to play cricket for New Zealand?

You're gone.

You're going to hate this.

But three years is not enough.

That group is still learning and adapting, and these players are going to come in and out.

They've already lost senior players in their time in the Broad and the Anderson, so new guys have got to find their feet, find their role, learn how to play with each other, stuff like that.

It's not enough.

You're going to hate the six, seven-odd years.

Unless you're Brendan McCullough.

like, where's the

passion and the fire and the desire to get right behind your team? And for me, I know we're a little bit different.

We are laid back and we are humble in our approach and doing things.

But I really want to try and see how we can... sort of pushed that on and for me personally i feel when i played super smash cricket yeah there was a lot more people in the stands we i mean i played at target university oval and i only held like 4 000 5 000 people we used to be full we used to be close to sellout most times and um i remember coming to bay oval uh my first time the grass and bank was a full but yeah saying that there was david warner coming in playing for northern districts brad hodge Brett Lee played for Otago, stuff like that.

So you had international guys coming in and representing, and I think that probably created a bit of interest.

You're sort of watching players, and obviously Black Caps players were more involved in the Super Smash 13.

There's a bit of a, you know, players also put bums on seats, so people want to follow and watch them.

Yeah, true.

What's the difference between somebody having a big slog and not coming off and that person coming in or that person retiring so that somebody else can come in? Psychologically, what's the difference?

See, the difference is you have Xavier Bell and Jeet Raval in a left-handed-right-handed combination, which is great.

At that time, you think they're two good players, a young, inexperienced player, you know, he's learning his craft, he's a talented player, and he needs to go through that experience, but he's struggling to find the boundary.

And then you have Jeet Raval who, you know, he's not really a power hitter, he's someone who manipulates the field, runs twos, he can clear the rope and clear the boundary, but he's smart at getting, you know, changing the field and being able to manipulate the field, get twos, But at that stage, the game was gone.

Twos are not going to win you the game.

You needed to go 15 runs and over.

So it means you have to clear the boundary twice and over.

But what they did is they used the rules to get an advantage for what they wanted that wasn't the regular way cricket is played.

Is that how you see it?

No, definitely not, because it's World Test Championship points on offer.

So all the tests do matter.

So in the context of the Ashes, yes, potentially, I can understand what he's trying to say, but in the greater scheme of things, trying to get a World Test Championship final, all of it does matter, and every test point becomes crucial.

You look into Australia as well, the other teams going around, Australia's right at the top, but if they start all of a sudden losing a couple of games with what's left in their schedule, you allow the door again for...

South Africa, New Zealand and India to be able to creep in and get closer with results going their way.

So, yeah, no, every test does matter.

Wags, you famously were denied the opportunity of a farewell test, and New Zealand cricket fans, me being one of them, dirty on that opportunity that we didn't get a chance to say farewell to you in a test when you see a speech like that from someone who does get the fairy tale and the concept of I want to say I'll play my last test at home and I get to you know raise the bat whether it's a hundred or a farewell they get that moment what hit you after that

Yeah.

put on the ball to be able to get the shine on the ball to get the ball swinging.

Once that's stopped, you know, all of a sudden you're just bowling with the ball going straight up and down.

I think batters have come into that technique where they started just being able to stand there and throw the bat through the line and also just play as if they did in white ball cricket because we obviously know white ball doesn't swing around as much or move around as much.

You start, you know, using your change in pace and different field placements to be able to obviously neglect that.

But I feel...

The wobble seam and the three-quarter seam has become a huge weapon in there because you can't shine the ball like you used to.

Given you played county cricket before, what is your verdict on county pitchers, county teams and whether they prepare you for international cricket?

But a little jealous, aren't you, Wags? 100% strike rate from two

tests.

Jeez, Michael, Ray, mate, it was a pleasure watching you going.

I don't think you know and understand...

Lucky and fortunate you are as well to be able to come into two tests and get two wins.

Mate, there's a lot of players who've played for New Zealand.

It took me about 11 tests before I had my first test win.

He did a job with his country and ended him.

They're so different to everywhere else that I feel as though that they weren't given a huge shot with the preparation because of the lack of time they even had in Australia before the series started.

I totally agree with you.

I think the catching, I think they created...

The way they bowled their first test at Perth, they almost showed, like, there's something here.

They started, they went with it, but it's almost like, you know, I think they're naive, I don't know, but like Sammy mentioned... how the media got the bait out.

And I think the English media, which they normally do a lot, as they jump on the ship of it, they back them.

And as soon as the first things went wrong, they started bagging them and then it became a bigger frenzy.

It's hard for me to understand why you would not like to see a team play the way they've played.

And I don't want to take anything away from the Blackcaps bowlers and field placements, but there was so much more to give than what they had.

Yeah, 100%.

They showed more fight in Christchurch.

I think the surface and the wicket allowed them to, and I think it was similar to the conditions that they sometimes could get in Western East, so they felt comfortable.

It's a young team.

There's literally only Shea Hope, who's a quality batter who struggles in our conditions.

He found a little bit of a method in a way, but I still feel you look at him and bowl him and you go...

Is that a one-off? Is Ajaz Patel now going to be someone who needs to be part of plans for all tests played in New Zealand? No.

Respectfully, we say to those who did get their opportunities and took those opportunities, that it's your front line and your first cabs off the rink all missing.

Yeah, I think you saw a true reflection of it in that test match at the Basin Reserve.

Once the ball started moving, Steve bounced his pace in the wicket.

They're just not used to it.

And when you've got an inexperienced team that travel, yeah, they've got some good players.

Their players are standing out, but they just weren't able to sustain it long enough.

They weren't able to...

Do you see that as just a world-class test wicket or one that would favour anyone who got the toss right?

Could there be a place in test cricket where injury placements could be a part of it?

Look, I think it can be discussions either way.

I think if it's something like this where you can medically prove there's been a fracture, a break or dislocation or a big sort of tear in a muscle that the guy can't play any sort of part of the game again.

Can you replace him with a like-for-like player? Yeah, I think there could be talk around it.

But the flip side of it is, mate, yeah, test cricket is hard and it's not easy.

And I think the preparation goes into it for you to be able to to play and be fit to do a role.

There's been a lot of injuries to fast bowlers at the moment and I think it's because of a diet of four-day cricket, a diet of test cricket and too much T20 cricket.

New Zealand's still batting.

Could there be a place in test cricket where injury placements could be a part of it?

Look, I think it can be discussions either way.

I think if it's something like this where you can medically prove there's been a fracture, a break, or a dislocation, or a big sort of tear in the muscle that the guy can't play any sort of part of the game again, can you replace him with a like-for-like player? Yeah, I think there could be talk around it, but the flip side of it is, mate, test cricket is hard, and It's not easy, and I think the preparation goes into it for you to be able to play and be fit to do a role.

There's been a lot of injuries to fast bowlers at the moment, and I think it's because of a diet of four-day cricket, a diet of test cricket, and too much T20 cricket.

Guys are running in bowling four overs at a high intensity, high pace, playing for three hours.

The way they train, potentially not being able to get – the conditioning loading in that they need because of the amount of T20 cricket, the amount of cricket that's going on around the world and the travel they have to do.

I just don't think they get the conditioning in that they need to be able to play five days of cricket.

all the best as we head into this next day speaking with neil wagner a former blackcaps pace bowler and cricket commentator wags as we head into this day 24 without loss this has to be a day where we talk about new zealand batting at the start and getting the stumps new zealand still batting

Well, entertaining is not getting bowled out for 175 in 36 overs, at least not in my opinion anyway.

Yeah, they've got serious quality within their group.

They're a quality outfit, England.

There's some seriously good players, but there's also some inexperienced players.

And I think that's sort of showed throughout the series so far.

New Zealand's been outstanding.

The way they've bowled, the way they've adapted to conditions.

I thought they did a great job.