there

you go.

So if it makes you uncomfortable to come over to my big fancy house, get ready to be uncomfortable.

I actually love that.

Get ready to be disturbed.

Yes.

Because the way you're going to be like, oh, oh, oh, you just, oh, you're going to be itching.

Yes.

So how do you navigate a relationship with your in-laws?

The biggest thing with in-laws is to remember that you are joining a family culture.

You don't have to love and like these people.

You need to be cordial and get along.

A lot of our stuff, unfortunately, is put on the in-laws.

My mother-in-law should be nice.

Maybe not.

And you think that if you have that discussion before you start to interact all the time with their family, so that there's just understanding between you?

'Cause it's such a complicated mess

...

the shoe example, okay, someone comes in your house, and they set their shoes somewhere.

It's your house.

You know, your boundary stratosphere.

Move their shoes.

You move their shoes.

Yeah

Yeah.

Um, but in real life, people don't figure things out without us telling them.

Um, sometimes the, the separation that we encourage pushes us further apart, and what could be more helpful is being really clear with people.

Um, it sounds like you res- reached a place of burnout, right?

Yeah.

Right? And sometimes for people to learn the things that we already know, we have to just leave them.

When I work with couples, especially with younger kids and the mom is like, "Oh my gosh, I have to do all these things before he takes the kid," let him leave the house with a ill-equipped diaper bag.

[laughs]

And so now, [laughs] one of the things I do now, if people offer something like, "Hey, can I bring anything?" I, even if I don't need it, grab napkins.

You know, I'd rather have a overabundance of napkins than to, to always tell people, "No, no, no, no." Because what happens is we are training people not to help us.

And so over time, they stop asking.

They don't even ask if you need anything because they start to understand you've got it.

They're not a per- You're not a person that they need to worry about.

And so this idea that we can figure it out on our own or we're doing things all by ourselves, it's, it's impossible.

So what are your recommendations for smart tech and social media use, um, you know, in the context of, like, you know, living a healthy life?

Mm.

It is exhausting.

And so we have to fil- figure out a way, how do I show up in my queendom as a supported queen? How do I show up and receive help from other people? I am not alone.

There are people in my village, in my community that can support me even if I am the person who is in charge.

Because, you know, your partner's in charge, the children are in charge of themselves.

[laughs] Like, we're all in charge of something.

And so it's, it's not this independent role that you have.

Is that another boundary which is like when you agree to do the cooking, you actually have to make, you know, X, Y, Z, or whatever it is? Or is that us putting our expectation on someone else?

Well, yes.

Yeah, so for kids who are not emotionally safe, where they have a caregiver who understands, respects, listens, shows some level of concern, they can't have boundaries.

There are some people who grow up in households where, where, you know, parents might even say to them, "You can't say that to me.

You have to listen to me.

You can't question this," or, "This is the rule," even if the rule doesn't make sense or the rule is unsafe.

So some children are taught that it's not okay to push back even when it's necessary.

And unfortunately, when you grow up in an environment like that, many of us carry it on even though we can have the boundary.

Mm.

What would you say, having heard Paula, maybe you were getting some insight as you listened in, as you eavesdrop, what was occurring to you?

Yeah.

Clear boundaries are really important when we're starting a job or even as we're in the job, communicating as the needs of the environment shift.

Because, you know, maybe you started your job 10 years ago and some things weren't a thing.

You know, I can imagine that, you know, employers are now having to institute new things with AI or with working from home.

Like, as you're in a work environment, things will shift, so being very clear around what the new rules are and that they apply to everybody, and here's why, is really important.

Also, demonstrating some, some boundaries as a boss, because people often complain that they work in these environments where it's like, "We, we honor work-life balance.

Is that a big part of your boundaries discussion?

If we were to give people permission to just not know, to not

say, that's sort of a beautiful thing, too.

Or to not relate.

I had a client.

She was really grieving the loss.

of her her father who you know is a really good father and I can't relate I said oh you know so I just listen and you know the thing that comes up for me when when they talk about it is what a beautiful experience to have with a human hmm I don't have to relate.

I don't have to make you feel better.

How to navigate the emotionally immature parent-child relationship as an adult?

Yeah

... we can't be honest, people aren't being honest with us, I have no things that people can understand.

One of the things that makes us feel really connected is someone being able to relate to what we're saying.... someone being there in our moments of need without having to be there, but really being there because they want to support us.

Um, someone being able to hold what we're discussing.

And for many-

Mm.

We want everybody else to, "If they would just call me, if they would just ask for less, if they would, if they would, if they would." And you are the person who was called to be the controller of your life.

You are in the driver's seat.

Mm-hmm.

Don't even wait till December.

Use your vacation.

It is so normal for us to not think about ourselves and to allow the burnout to come in with work, that we're just like, "This is normal.

Burnout is normal.

Teach me how to manage it." It's teach me boundaries so you don't experience the burnout.

I think another big area where I notice boundary issues is relationships.

[laughs]

Maybe you can walk us through what those two extremes look like and then what we should be striving for.

Yeah, I think when we think of... healthy dependency.

I was speaking with someone and it was like, it sounds like an oxymoron because the word dependency in itself sounds bad, right? We're like depending on people and it's a very healthy thing.

We always have depended on people and we always will.

There is no autonomous us, right? There are people bringing us groceries, food, all the things are with people.

The challenge with dependency is when we operate at either end of the spectrum.

So one end might be us being hyper independent, where we are doing most things on our own.

I mean, we've sort of touched on it, but like if you had to list out some tranquil hallmarks of what that healthy middle ground looks like and how we can start trying to cultivate that in our relationships.

Hmm.

In doing that, we say a lot.

I think you can state most boundaries in one to two sentences.

Typically, people will have an hour-long conversation, and they still haven't stated a boundary.

They're problem talking, "And then this happened, and this happened, and I'd like you to fix this." And this is what happens with work environments.

There has been, you know, little discussion of we need less hours, and we're working too much, has been the conversation.

What is the solution? The solution is the boundary.

So the- it's like an internal boundary that we literally have to, i- like, make this contract with ourselves.

So I get torn between those things.

Yeah.

You know, I, at the end of the day, we will always have ourselves, and then on top of that is everyone else.

So the person that I have to please the mostIs me it doesn't mean that what I need or what I want is more important than anyone else but I certainly believe in self-care first because I cannot care for anyone or anything before I care for myself and so with that in mind um as I am taking on you know more things I have to think about is this something I really have the capacity to do as I am listening more to people I have to think is my energy in a space to take this in as as I am offering more support I have to think can I really do this because we're not doing um anyone a favor when we are depleted and still helping them so often if I say no it's in light of everything else that I have going on things that I need to do for uh my family that lives in my house myself and then I'm honoring outside requests and people don't know what my calendar looks like what my energy looks like how much how much sleep I've had how much water they they don't know these things so as they're coming to me um for help and and and with requests um they don't have a background story and so we don't have to take it personal right and say like oh my gosh this person should know that I ca- well they don't know because they don't know everything that's going on with you and it's really our job to let them know that um I really can't handle this thing right now in light of the other things that I have going on uh and there's no apology needed for that because we don't have to apologize for for having other things going on there may be times when you're available to them and there may be times when you are not this is you know this might be a not time

Mm-hmm.

I may choose not to be in a certain type of relationship with a person, but your tolerance of nonsense may be higher than mine.

I can't determine, I can't determine that.

I think the challenge is having a one set rule about cutting people off.

So talk to me then about codependency on setting boundaries and how that really does affect a relationship or really how like boundaries are the healthy thing to avoid codependency.

Yeah, so in codependency, codependent relationships, there typically aren't any boundaries because the relationship is dependent on the enmeshment, the rescuing, the saving, the minimizing of really big problems.

And so when you're engaged in those behaviors, there's typically not a lot of room for structure and limitations and expectations.

And so having boundaries certainly breaks up the ability for a person to be codependent.

And particularly when we have a family history of trauma and dysfunction, codependency, it's really hard to begin to set those boundaries because it's a new concept.

They're like, whoa, wait a minute.

You're the only person who's saying we have to do X. because the family dynamic has operated on not having any boundaries, not having any rules or expectations, holding people accountable.

Or am I just being naive?

How do you think about that word?

It definitely came from the substance use community.

You know, the big book, Codependent No More, where it talks about, you know, like having these connections with a partner or family member who has these issues.

you know, qualities of addiction, right? They're, they're selling money, they're lying, they're doing all these things and you're like upholding them in that.

That's the origin of that.

And I think it does apply to other things.

We can uphold people in lots of things in life where they're having some, some behaviors that we support and it continues, you know, this detrimental situation in their life.

Like, are there things that a person can do

They can be hard, especially when they're deep, like you're describing in the movie where it's maybe been years and you're not even aware of it or you're aware of it and to change

that pattern might cost something.

I think a part of it is we have to do what feels uncomfortable.

And for many of us, I would say 99.9%, that's a really hard practice.

if you are a person who is hyper independent and you need more people, I think even, you know, noticing the people who've, who've offered to help and actually giving them a task to help with, that's really hard because you have bought into the belief that you can do it by yourself and you don't need anybody else.

But the practice of, I actually do need people looks like needing them.

You know, so you can't have community without calling on them and being a villager, right? It's hard.

if you don't need it

So how do people lean into that feeling of uncomfortableness and actually get through to do it?

You have to want to change your life enough.

You have to want to change the relationship enough.

And sometimes our ambivalence is a sign we're not ready.

We don't want to accept that.

I should be ready now.

And it's like, you're not ready now.

Or I

And so I'd love for you to talk about that spectrum and some sense of self-awareness that can go, ah, I feel like here's where I fall

on this scale.

Well, I wanna start with hyper-independence because I don't think it gets enough shine.

And the hyper-independent folks are the folks in society who are strong, who are very capable, who tend to be successful individuals, but they have low support systems.

They have challenges with seeking and accepting help.

I can do everything on my own.

And then the opposite end of that spectrum, as you mentioned, is where we see people who are more codependent.

You're not doing anything.

I am loyal to love.

I'm not loyal to abuse.

I'm not loyal to abandonment.

I'm not loyal to persecution.

And I think we mix up what love is.

people will abuse you and say, I love you.

Now go to bed after they've done a ton of things or not taking good care of you or maybe hurt you in some way.

start with when you were a child or do you just start with the now?

I am loyal to love.

I'm not loyal to abuse.

I'm not loyal to abandonment.

I'm not loyal to persecution.

And I think we mix up what love is because... people will abuse you and say, I love you.

Now go to bed after they've done a ton of things or not taking good care of you or maybe hurt you in some way.

They will still say, I love you.

Do you start with when you were a child or do you just start with the now?

Like, how do people do better?

Yeah, well, with too rigid boundaries, I often find that they have a lot of discomfort around holding the boundary, and so we explore, is this a boundary you even want to have or is this a boundary that you feel like you should have? Is this some sort of punishment you're trying to issue? Is this guilt that you're feeling? So very often with, with folks who come to therapy, they've been tolerating things for a very long time, and so that's why we've seen a lot of overactive boundaries, right? Because people have been tolerating their uncle, their cousin, their friend, their job for so long that when the boundary comes out, it's a yell, it's a scream, it's aggressive, it's firm, because we're tired.

And so we have to think about, "What are the boundaries that I can implement here that I can actually live with? What are the boundaries here that would make me feel comfortable in this relationship?" If all of your boundaries end in a cutoff, because I see that sometime, the boundary is a cutoff.

There is no in between.

It's either we're in relationship or we are not.

Have there been any things in between that help you all stay in a relationship? In jobs, we call that a performance review plan.

Right? So you give somebody some things that they need to do or you take on some things that you need to do so the relationship can be better, but we are going right from problem to firing.

Mm.

Like, how do people do better?

Yeah, well, with too rigid boundaries, I often find that they have a lot of discomfort around holding the boundary, and so we explore, is this a boundary you even want to have, or is this a boundary that you feel like you should have? Is this some sort of punishment you're trying to issue? Is this guilt that you're feeling? So very often with, with folks who come to therapy, they've been tolerating things for a very long time, and so that's why we've seen a lot of overactive boundaries, right? Because people have been tolerating their uncle, their cousin, their friend, their job for so long that when the boundary comes out, it's a yell, it's a scream, it's aggressive, it's firm, because we're tired.

And so we have to think about, "What are the boundaries that I can implement here that I can actually live with? What are the boundaries here that would make me feel comfortable in this relationship?" If all of your boundaries end in a cutoff, because I see that sometime.

The boundary is a cutoff.

There is no in between.

It's either, "We're in relationship, or we are not." Have there been any things in between that help you all stay in a relationship? In jobs, we call that a performance review plan, right? So, you give somebody some things that they need to do, or you take on some things that you need to do so the relationship can be better.

But we are going right from problem to firing.

Mm.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So it happens on both sides, but here's the thing, healthy boundaries are a way for us to connect....who determines what a healthy boundary is? Sometimes, it's like, you know, maybe you do, and sometimes it's talking to other people is figuring out, is this a rule that is punitive? Is this something that could further our relationship? In my situation, what I noticed was we argue a lot when we stay in the same space.

So, I think what could be healthier is, maybe if we don't stay in the same space, we'll enjoy each other.

So, sometimes that explanation of why we have the boundary can be helpful, but many of us may decide, "I don't want to accept your boundary.

I will cut you off instead." And when we cut people off, we're saying we're ending a relationship, because the rules of engagement should not apply to me.

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Yeah.

Yeah.

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