Yeah

... you know, when I look back at what happened with me and how I ended up where I ended up, I, I-- When I was kind of an artist, and same with a musician, is I was playing for a very small audience, and that was the one thing that was frustrating to me, is that, you know, starting out, um, you know, the goal, the, the biggest success of like my art career was gonna be like end up in some book somewhere that kids get read to in, in college.

Like, that was it.

And I felt like that audience was, um, it's not what I wanted, you know? I wanted to go further than that, and I, I wanted to have more of a culture.

I wanted to be a part of culture.

And, and you s- like a lot of my early art projects that were kind of culture jamming, whatever you wanna call it, um, we did these projects like recode.com, where you could switch, uh, barcodes to, um, name your own price during like that beginning of advertising where Che Guevara was used to sell low finance short checking accounts.

Or I did this project called F the Vote where you could trade sex for votes against President Bush.

... um, how do you reflect, um, on, uh, you know, I guess your own, uh, trajectory in regards to like, you know, being comfortable using the tools but being wary about it, um, versus other people that don't even put it through the second filter?