Um, the first question that I always ask my guests, 'cause it's great to just sort of know where you started your career in leadership, is what was your first middle l- leadership role, um, and how did you come into it? And if you're happy to share the school, the context, what it was, would-- I'd love to hear about that.

Yeah, sure.

Look, I, um, uh, was in a regional New South Wales, um, school, medium-sized independent school, Scune Grammar School, and, um, coming from teaching in the classroom and holding a, a pastoral role at the same time, um, in the school.

Um, I can't remember a moment actually where I said, "Geez, I'd, I'd, I'd love to lead a small team" or, um, or any particular, um, specific focus I might have had at the time.

But, um, I was given the responsibility to run a smaller department arising out of that, and it seemed quite authentic, um, at the time.

Um, I was only in that role for, for a few years and then, um, was quite quickly moved into a, um, another, another senior role in a school.

In some schools it might look like a middle leadership role.

Yeah