Nowadays, a quarter century later, it seems like a lot of people, especially younger people and people from the global South and just people with different, more hybrid or cosmopolitan sensibilities are really interested in dreaming up alternatives and challenging the establishment's priors and also their own priors.

Yes, and I'm glad that you brought up 9-11 and that immediately brings in the war on terror, which is one of the biggest hurdle for change and also is very conducive of All the things that we would like to change.

The thing about the war on terror also is that it's not just the direction.

It creates an industry, an industry of commands, budgets, think tanks, surveillance, partners.

all this becomes something that is rigid and outlasts the main cause that created this structure.

And that is also part of hindering change because there are people who are benefiting from this industry.

Again, we saw the same thing with great power competition.

uh,

So but given that- The, uh, Trump and his administration ha- have squandered US power and credibility, um, and to the point where, for example, the Prime Minister of Canada next door has said, "You know, any deal with this administration is written in pencil." Does that mean in a sort of zero sum way that as the world is sort of over Trump, that's tired of him, and they don't take him seriously anymore, does that mean that they will turn to China? Is that sort of vibe, for the want of a better word, uh, happening there at, at the General Assembly?

Well, I mean, th- there, there are a couple of things here.

First, we should not...

We should distinguish between credibility and power.

Leaders may distrust Trump profoundly and still have a deal with him.

Uh, being able to compel a meeting is not the same as being trusted to keep an agreement, basically.

And that doesn't really mean, uh, directly that they're gonna turn to China because, I mean, we cannot assume that just because the United States is now, I mean, acting in a way that is threatening, uh, a lot of countries, particularly ones who are on the weaker side, that the immediate automatic, I mean, uh, resort for them is turning to China.

And he governs by stunt, and the feeling is that he's running out of material.