I asked if that distinguished Pliny the Elder among the IPAs of the time.

Yeah, it did.

I mean, those techniques were not things that craft brewers did or micro brewers, however you want to term it at the time.

You know, that was all big brewer stuff that Vinnie was doing.

And it was it raised a lot of eyebrows.

But, you know, as a brewer, when you taste the beer and you taste how dry it is and how expressive the hops were and how how the malt did not conflict with the hops, which was kind of the key point of all of that.

All of those techniques that Vinny used, it made a lot of sense.

Here's Steele.

So why don't you talk to how you're making non-alcoholic beers today? Okay.

Yeah, it's pretty amazing what's happened with non-alcoholic beer in the past few years.

And, you know, we might have touched on it back a few years ago about about brewers who are using maltose negative yeast.

And these are yeasts that some of them are non-saccharomyces strains and but they don't ferment maltose.

And so you can brew a beer or brew a wort.

And then put this yeast in there and, you know, if you brew it correctly, you're only going to get a half a percent or so of alcohol because it just can't ferment the uh, the sugars that are formed during the mashing process.

Um, you know, and since then, you know, since that started, there's been a few things that have really, really kind of taken off.

Um, are these lower alcohol IPAs or using other techniques to kind of get that cost down?

Mm-hmm.

But you go with a really hot mash very short period of time, and so you're minimizing the conversion to maltose anyway.

Um, and but, uh, and, and then you brew a...

The wort you brew is usually lower gravity, um, five to six Plato, maybe seven to eight Plato, somewhere in that range.

So by the time, you know, the, the yeast does its thing, um, you end up with something that's close to 0.5% alcohol.

And, uh, and then you have some fairly high, uh, dextrin content in, in the beer as well.

But, um, you know, the beautiful thing about it is there have been so many yeast companies that are developing these different strains for doing NA beers now, uh, that there are a lot of options out there.

Hmm

were you doing wine production yeah okay

Yeah, I was an assistant winemaker at a large winery.

But we had been trying to make some really nice wines, and then we scaled that back.

And I was living in a town called Hollister, California, which is about 45 miles south of San Jose, inland from Monterey.

And I read in the paper about a guy who was starting a brew pub there.

And this was probably 1987 in Hollister, in the town.

And I had been looking at doing the same thing.

Was that a hard transition when you went from, no,