hang on, no, I'm a

good guy.

Like, I, I, I'm a good, why, why are you treating me like this? Like, why is everyone abandoning me? And, and then there's like that confusion and the loss of community.

So I had no one else to like, like, can't anyone see that? Like, and, and I was just felt so hard done by, because I know that I'm a, you know, and I, I would, I wouldn't take accountability for my actions.

So I was just like, even in that moment, I was like, I'm a good guy.

Can't you see like what I, you know, how we broke up is not my fault.

And it's like, well, hang on, you're not taking accountability.

back

Mm.

You know? And I, I do understand and acknowledge that with time comes growth.

And yeah, of course, like that for some of those footage is 15 years ago and, you know, maybe longer.

And it's like because of time and experiences in life, you do get a bit, a little bit stronger, wiser, and you have that growth.

But fundamentally, the difference between that person and what I am now is just like, I, I am not that scared little boy that is scared to upset people, scared to not fit in.

And now that we're sort of unpacking it, it's like, bro, like that's, like that's not you.

Like, yes, it is me, but it's not you.

Can you, can you share that story?

how have you tried to kind of cut the math on that and figure out the best ways to try to to make sure that when this environment does change we might be looking at x or y with a guy

Oh yeah.

It is so much repetition.

It is so much watching teams over and over again, talking to people who work for the team or talking to people who play against them to kind of understand their tendencies a little bit.

Like one team will have a very extreme strategy on breakouts.

Like they want their guys to make plays, stretch the ice, look for those long bomb passes.

And when you do that, you're going to turn the puck over more.

what are the in your brain is are there and i'll split into the two groups forward and defenseman what are the two biggest things that we actually should look at when we're talking about the european coming over to north america and what actually should be applied and what do we just becomes too much of a talking point for that's an excuse because they're not lighting the world on fire

Yeah.

I honestly...

And I speak about this in three versions because it's honestly like, first and foremost, because, The way that I saw football, the way that this country sees football, it's like built up to be like you've made the divine level, like you are the – this is it.

So even though – I might have been homesick, scared out of my brains, never been on a plane, leaving my twin brother for the first time, homesick.

I just, like, it was like this thing that, well, of course, it doesn't matter about what I think.

I've made it, you know? So it's, yeah, like...

So that was the one thing.

Can you talk about meeting Sophia and Mitch and knowing that these were the right people to trust the continuation of your story with as well? Yeah.

Yeah.

I honestly...

And I speak about this in three versions because it's honestly like, first and foremost, because, The way that I saw football, the way that this country sees football, it's like built up to be like you've made the divine level, like you are the – this is it.

So even though – I might have been homesick, scared out of my brains, never been on a plane, leaving my twin brother for the first time, homesick.

I just, like, it was like this thing that, well, of course, it doesn't matter about what I think.

I've made it, you know? So it's, yeah, like...

So that was the one thing.

Can you talk about meeting Sophia and Mitch and knowing that these were the right people to trust the continuation of your story with as well? Yeah.

How did you process all of that? How did you kind of feel into that? Did you feel into that?

Well, I certainly didn't expect it to be the response it was.

Like, it's, um, so unique, obviously in the AFL rules, competition for a queer man to speak up and then come out.

The uniqueness of that.

I think the uniqueness of vulnerability and someone, a man, just take away football and whatever sports and pedestal, a man speaking his truth, his connection to, you know, his sexuality, connection to love and emotions and, and two men having that with me and Sam.

Two men having-

Do you see a through line between that culture of hyper-masculinity and what's unfolding right now, what's alleged to have happened in the Swans?

So there's no doubt about it, and I've, I've felt this myself, and I've also heard this from people with lived experience, experts, people that have researched.

I'm going to have one of these because they're my favourites with the red bits on

there.

Nice chocolate.

Chocolate for me.

So when I finish football, it's not like people just assume that I left football to be queer.

I left football to be able to start breaking down the layers that I've, these masks, this armour that I put up that says to me that you need to stay in this box to belong.

and so that that took years to like break down one layer at a time and it wasn't until i had my first child um who's now six i have two little boys now which we co-parent and You know, you have these, and we all do have these conversations with our children or young people.

How long have you guys been together?

Mitch, management is across all of that, right? Like do they just sweep it under the rug and turn a blind eye?

Well, what happens, right, and it goes back to my point, you can still have success if right? And that these high performing, high masculine sports, you can still have this horrible culture, right? Disrespect to women, disrespect to wider community and still win, right? So when it comes to everything measured, including the head coach where, you know, they come down to contract, they're on contracts, right? And players, you're only measured on your performance, right? Yeah.

And that's, so that's a sustained culture.

It's always been like that.

So what happens is like you can win a premiership and still have this toxic off-field culture.

So what that does, you know, is embedded in that you don't have to prioritize like respect for women to win a premiership.

You don't have to prioritize, you know, any of that stuff to win.

What would meaningful accountability look like to you, not just from individuals but from a football club and the AFL in general?

So away from the names mentioned there, broadly speaking, How important is languaging? Because it feels like it should be easy to do, right? And it massively can impact either really positively, but certainly in this scenario, hugely negatively.

I tell you this guys, I think especially if you hold a position of influence and a lot of people within football and media do, it's important that you get your messaging right.

You have this platform to make a difference, to stamp out this type of behavior beyond the realm of football.

It's an Australian cultural issue, violence against women at the hands of men.

Now, first and foremost, victims should always come first.

And I don't care if you're a football expert, you're being paid to talk football and that's what you're meant to be doing.

And of course, there's a football players and a football club that the alleged perpetrators of this.

And I'm drawing a line in the sand because I don't want this stuff to continue.

Yeah,

it's really hard and I know this because I've been in this place myself.

I've been around many a times of, you know, Mad Mondays or the pubs or in locker rooms when I've heard the most horrible sort of language and words in conversations going on.

And I sat there going, this is not good.

I didn't say anything.

And, you know, for a lot of us, you know, whether in teams environments or in groups or in workplaces, there is a hierarchy.

And, you know, when you're sitting in there and you know, that hierarchy or patriarchy is real and you've got mouths to feed at home, or you've got, um, you rely on this income.

Syndicated partner, Joy 94.9. Yeah, that

Absolutely.

And I mean, that's for like my drive to get serious here.

My driving purpose in making sports safe for all and queer people and queer community and players is because it's such a beautiful thing.

Like sport is just something that unites us all and I love it.

I really love it.

And I just want to be a place where we all can go.

And, you know, you talk about the World Cup and, you know, there's a bringing of nations.

Actually the biggest, um, number of downloads is in the USA for Saturday Magazine and so there's a lot of people listening right now who are listening to this a few days later they might be in a country or an area or a place in Australia where they don't necessarily feel safe to go to sporting matches in particular what would you say to anyone listening who loves sports but is maybe struggling with their queer identity

Is-

Yeah.

Yep.

And you, it's really ha- it's like, uh, yeah, and like if you can't, like if you can't live who you are, and I know all of us are probably hiding something, just even if it's little or we don't know it, like it's part of human nature.

But if it's something that's genuinely there and you can't bring yourself, I think it's, you know, don't we want that? Is, you know, what, what we mean is like united and brotherhood and don't we want our mates and our brothers to be able to feel safe to bring their whole selves to, to an environment or footy club? And I think that, yeah, I think as good as environments can be, I think that's not the case in, in most environments.

Um, even, you know, even when you, uh, there's a lot of pe- players and a lot of people say, "Yeah, no, no, no, we, it totally open our arms up." Um, but there is still this, this distrust that maybe it won't be that way and maybe it will be not from the teammates.

Maybe it will be from an assistant coach that treats you a little bit different or doesn't know how to talk to you now because they're a little bit confronted by homosexuality or even though you don't know that and you can't guarantee that's gonna be the, the view of your playing group or the coaches or whatever, there's still this element of you can't trust that it's gonna be that way and, you know, I'm in this position where I've living this absolute dream and it's such a high pressure, high performance environment and, um, maybe I'm in a position where I'm actually going okay.

Is that the courage that's needed for anyone and to show the way that do it because your life will change for the better because of it?

Mm.

For a time there, I was the only player to speak out publicly and then speaking on behalf of, I guess, this marginalized community as a whole being able to feel safe to turn up as themselves, and it's a really hard balancing act, and I take- I don't take the responsibility lightly.

And it does ...

It, it's hard sometimes, and I, I think I often reflect around the trailblazers and the people that have come before me, that have paved the way to allow me to step out in some sort of comfort and to speak my truth, like Ian Roberts, like the AFLW players in my industry, and they did it even though it was still hard, and I, I, and I take on that responsibility.

I speak out even though I know it's still challenging, it's still hard.

I still get a lot of hate, um, but I know ultimately it's important because the way I see it is, you know, I'm a custodian in this space along with so many others, that any time I can help to make- I guess my industry, the AFL industry, this hyper-masculine sporting industry and the men's competition a little bit safer for everyone to turn up as themselves.

Maybe it makes it a little bit easier for the next queer person, maybe they're active and they're currently playing, to come out and speak their truth.

So what has to happen now?

Do you think that it's pretty on

course? As I'm watching it, as well as it being hot and steamy, really, really cool.

For me, it's like looking at this story, the words, the glances they give each other, it's so relatable and it just draws me in.

And I heard Isaac Humphries, who came out as a queer basketballer a couple of years ago, Adelaide 36ers in the NBL, he spoke about it.

It's his story.

It's so relatable.

So for people that are queer, that are playing sport or not just sport, you know, in their workplace or even at school, this story of, you know, hiding yourself and then finding someone and then going through this sense of denial or whatever and doubting yourself and then coming out and really owning your love and story at the end of the day, it's so relatable.

Do you think that it'll maybe now help empower people who are currently playing and are maybe hiding their own sexual identity or gender identity? Maybe this will help empower them to take that next step and live authentically in a public life?

Have you experienced that sort of double rejection?

You know, what I've experienced, especially my history and my background, grew up in the country.

I've got a, you know, an identical twin brother who played football as well, stoic and strong.

I-I definitely, like I, I feel sometimes like I question my own place in the queer community and, you know, "Look at you.

You're a white male, [chuckles] privileged, looking the way you do, trying to step into our trauma.

That's ours." And I acknowledge that too.

Like [chuckles] I'm like the first one to understand that, and to me, my journey has been relatively easy.

What do you hope they think when one day, they're a bit young now probably to sit through the length of this, but what do you hope that they think about you when they watch this one day?

Has anything changed since you played, do you think?

Well, I can't speak for the locker rooms now, but, you know, the fact that we're hearing more publicly about a homophobic slur is a good thing because it is being called out.

I remember when this issue, when I say issue, when this was talked, brought up at one time when I was playing around, um, no gay men in the AFL.

I was sitting in the, in the massage room, um, and there was just the general conversation around the issues in the AFL, and it just came up.

And I remember two people having a conversation around how they would feel having a shower next to a, a gay man.

One of the players referred it, "I'd rather be in a cage full of lions than have a shower next to a gay man." And there's been so many times in my life that I've seen things or heard things and not said anything, and I didn't say anything in fear of people thinking that I was gay or bisexual.

And I remember that feeling so, like it's so strong, and I didn't do anything about that.

Right.

oh, who cares, you know?

It's interesting, and I'd love to talk to the person who studies human psyche.

I'm sure there's a name for that.

But I don't know, like there is like, and this is not just around in the realm of sexuality and homophobia and, um, the queer community is like a lot of people just aren't equipped enough to be able to know what to say.

You know, I remember when one of my good friends, um, growing up, his sister was tragically killed in a car accident and, And I was there when he was told over the phone.

I just didn't know what to say to him.

So I probably just blabbered out of anything.

Like what was it like? Did you just, that podcast happened? And then is your phone just kind of lighting up for a